Captain America: Civil War *SPOILERS*

[MindofShadow]

Like we have talked about recently, I respect anyone's opinion as long as it isn't just a studio or comic company competition stance with blinders on. That's when it goes from a discussion to just a back-and-forth 'mine is better than yours' grenade toss.

For me, in being very familiar with the Dark Knight Returns, Death of Superman and Death In the Family material - I wasn't as bothered by things that troubled others. Other than the Theatrical Cut being roughly edited. Warner Bros. should have made the jump to do something different since it had so much material and gone with an Ultimate Cut with encouraged intermissions. Then it could have been something spectacular.

Now with the Martha scene, to me it did make sense because you are dealing with a severely traumatized person that witnessed the murder of his parents before his eyes. And the last word exchanged between them as they lay dying was "Martha!" I don't know about you, but someone experiencing something this jarring probably would react to this word going forward as a trigger to their emotions. Though I can see your point Affleck did take it to a level with his lost looks around you would think he was hypnotized.p

compltely invalidated by the whole "1% chance" speech

But then again, look at Civil War (since that is the topic of choice in this thread). So we see Steve Rogers finds out going back to Cap2 his best friend from childhood has become a worldwide assassin. And whether under his own control or not, Steve drops everyone else from his priority list just for Bucky, no matter how many murders he committed. And no matter his current relationships formed over the past few years. Now I respect Steve Rodgers for being so committed. But you would think he would pull in his current friends who also have impact from actions taken by Winter Soldier - including Tony Stark - and reason with them why they must capture and help the Winter Soldier. Not try and do this all on his own, including keeping secrets that no good to come of his actions when it finally got out.

But that's just me.

mind controlled assassin

mind controlled

mind controlled


Steve didn't have time to reason. Bucky showed up, there was a standign kill order on him, he went to find and stop the various task forces from killing him. Hence, when they were captured by war machine and co, he had a line like "hes alive isn't he" when someone was criticizing what he just did.

From there, well, shit just hit the fan and no one on the other side trusted his judgement anymore.

[Midvillian1322]

Like we have talked about recently, I respect anyone's opinion as long as it isn't just a studio or comic company competition stance with blinders on. That's when it goes from a discussion to just a back-and-forth 'mine is better than yours' grenade toss.

For me, in being very familiar with the Dark Knight Returns, Death of Superman and Death In the Family material - I wasn't as bothered by things that troubled others. Other than the Theatrical Cut being roughly edited. Warner Bros. should have made the jump to do something different since it had so much material and gone with an Ultimate Cut with encouraged intermissions. Then it could have been something spectacular.

Now with the Martha scene, to me it did make sense because you are dealing with a severely traumatized person that witnessed the murder of his parents before his eyes. And the last word exchanged between them as they lay dying was "Martha!" I don't know about you, but someone experiencing something this jarring probably would react to this word going forward as a trigger to their emotions. Though I can see your point Affleck did take it to a level with his lost looks around you would think he was hypnotized.

But then again, look at Civil War (since that is the topic of choice in this thread). So we see Steve Rogers finds out going back to Cap2 his best friend from childhood has become a worldwide assassin. And whether under his own control or not, Steve drops everyone else from his priority list just for Bucky, no matter how many murders he committed. And no matter his current relationships formed over the past few years. Now I respect Steve Rodgers for being so committed. But you would think he would pull in his current friends who also have impact from actions taken by Winter Soldier - including Tony Stark - and reason with them why they must capture and help the Winter Soldier. Not try and do this all on his own, including keeping secrets that no good to come of his actions when it finally got out.

But that's just me.

Im not saying the martha scene doesnt makes sense im just saying its bad. People have literaly laughed at that part, mostly because that stupid double take batman does. He like looks around like someone told supes to say that. The look on affleks face is hilarious. But yea we can agree to disagree.

Him and Falcon are actively hunting bucky between 2 and 3. In AoU it sounds like while hes doing avengers stuff he had falcon running down leads. Caps known since winter solider that bucky killed the starks, why would he want tony anywhere near it. For bucky and Tonys sake. With the build up from cap 1 and 2 the bucky emotional stuff fell short for me in civil war. But caps rationale made sense to me. Also when have we ever seen that cap trusts tonys judgement.

[Killercroc357]

compltely invalidated by the whole "1% chance" speech

How is it totally invalidated by the '1% speech'? The beginning of the movie demonstrated why Bruce felt even if there was the tiniest chance Clark could be a danger, he was not to be trusted and should be treated as a danger. What does that have to do with Bruce's personal tragedy?

mind controlled assassin

mind controlled

mind controlled


Steve didn't have time to reason. Bucky showed up, there was a standign kill order on him, he went to find and stop the various task forces from killing him. Hence, when they were captured by war machine and co, he had a line like "hes alive isn't he" when someone was criticizing what he just did.

From there, well, shit just hit the fan and no one on the other side trusted his judgement anymore.

Wait - did you say 'mind controlled' yet?

Just kidding. Although mind-controlled, the assassinations are still very personal when it comes to Tony Stark and then later with Black Panther. But you are looking at this from near-term/Civil War events. Yet the murder of the Starks was fairly clear to Steve since the bunker scene with computerized Arnim Zola when he flashes the newspaper clipping of Howard Stark's death on the screen and talks about personal impacts. Steve had plenty of time to share that with Tony Stark, with the understanding MIND CONTROL was involved and at any time Bucky surfaced they needed to work together to capture him. This way he could 1) be kept from further assassinations and 2) get the help he needs to address his MIND CONTROL.

That's where the Marvel Studios 'tying the pieces together' can backfire a little. If you remember how all these events came together, you realize there was also ample time to better break the news between these characters what was going on.

[Midvillian1322]

How is it totally invalidated by the '1% speech'? The beginning of the movie demonstrated why Bruce felt even if there was the tiniest chance Clark could be a danger, he was not to be trusted and should be treated as a danger. What does that have to do with Bruce's personal tragedy?



Wait - did you say 'mind controlled' yet?

Just kidding. Although mind-controlled, the assassinations are still very personal when it comes to Tony Stark and then later with Black Panther. But you are looking at this from near-term/Civil War events. Yet the murder of the Starks was fairly clear to Steve since the bunker scene with computerized Arnim Zola when he flashes the newspaper clipping of Howard Stark's death on the screen and talks about personal impacts. Steve had plenty of time to share that with Tony Stark, with the understanding MIND CONTROL was involved and at any time Bucky surfaced they needed to work together to capture him. This way he could 1) be kept from further assassinations and 2) get the help he needs to address his MIND CONTROL.

That's where the Marvel Studios 'tying the pieces together' can backfire a little. If you remember how all these events came together, you realize there was also ample time to better break the news between these characters what was going on.

Theres a good way to tell a friend that your best friend might have killed his parents? Steve had no reason to believe this would ever come out and at thos point in tonys life its just opening up an old wound

[Killercroc357]

Im not saying the martha scene doesnt makes sense im just saying its bad. People have literaly laughed at that part, mostly because that stupid double take batman does. He like looks around like someone told supes to say that. The look on affleks face is hilarious. But yea we can agree to disagree.

Hey, one man's pain is another man's pleasure I guess. Let me know next time you happen across someone that experienced a double-family murder and the final death involved that one trigger word how they react. I don't know anyone like that, but have seen enough military members dealing with extensive trauma and what it does to them mentally. Closest you come to the situation, short of civilians dealing with attacks and murder.

Him and Falcon are actively hunting bucky between 2 and 3. In AoU it sounds like while hes doing avengers stuff he had falcon running down leads. Caps known since winter solider that bucky killed the starks, why would he want tony anywhere near it. For bucky and Tonys sake. With the build up from cap 1 and 2 the bucky emotional stuff fell short for me in civil war. But caps rationale made sense to me. Also when have we ever seen that cap trusts tonys judgement.

You just answer my last post about the situation, where Steve Rodgers had plenty of time to figure out how to tackle breaking the news to Tony Stark what really occurred, and that Bucky was really being controlled when this took place. So yes, he would want to do this when you are dealing with an emotionally challenged individual that flies around in an armored suit that can take down small cities. Better you tell him up front and deal with the initial reactions then later on when you possibly have Bucky in your possession, and having to keep Tony from killing him at the same time because he is dealing with his raw emotions right there and then. Better to tear the band-aid off early - help YOUR FRIEND through this so later on when you work together to capture your other FRIEND it may end up better managed.

So as you point out with Steve not trusting Tony's judgment in the situation, do you deal with it up front or later on when he is tearing a building apart to get to to Bucky? Tough call, unless you are standing there in someone's shoes. But I would say up-front could reveal to Steve if the situation would be manageable or not.

[Killercroc357]

Theres a good way to tell a friend that your best friend might have killed his parents? Steve had no reason to believe this would ever come out and at thos point in tonys life its just opening up an old wound

Yes - mind control as the contributing factor that caused all these events to occur. Otherwise, you leave Tony assuming an individual (which he later would find out it was Bucky) did this on their own. So revealing it was Hydra and mind control was involved in their comic book world sure would prove out to be much more reasonable then having to tackle this later on.

[Midvillian1322]

Yes - mind control as the contributing factor that caused all these events to occur. Otherwise, you leave Tony assuming an individual (which he later would find out it was Bucky) did this on their own. So revealing it was Hydra and mind control was involved in their comic book world sure would prove out to be much more reasonable then having to tackle this later on.

Tony and Tchalla knew and they didnt seem to care. Tchalla had an epiphany after seeing how revenge consumed zemo and tony just lost we dont know how he will.react to bucky next time they meet. No one seemed to care that it was mind controll. Black widow released everything to the public, there is no reason to believe everyone doesnt know what bucky was put through.

And again Steve had no reason to believe this would ever come out and didnt even know for sure bucky did it, hes just knows arminzola said he did. As far as he knows therr was no evidence. Thats a paper thin reason to tear open an old would for tony, because there was a video tape in a bunker you dont even know exists. That not somethint anyone would even consider was going to happen


Also your arguement about the martha scene is like arguing that cuba gooding jr.was good in radio because that might be how someone with a disability acts and I.should let you know next time I see one.

[Killercroc357]

Tony and Tchalla knew and they didnt seem to care. Tchalla had an epiphany after seeing how revenge consumed zemo and tony just lost we dont know how he will.react to bucky next time they meet. No one seemed to care that it was mind controll. Black widow released everything to the public, there is no reason to believe everyone doesnt know what bucky was put through.

And again Steve had no reason to believe this would ever come out and didnt even know for sure bucky did it, hes just knows arminzola said he did. As far as he knows therr was no evidence. Thats a paper thin reason to tear open an old would for tony, because there was a video tape in a bunker you dont even know exists. That not somethint anyone would even consider was going to happen


Also your arguement about the martha scene is like arguing that cuba gooding jr.was good in radio because that might be how someone with a disability acts and I.should let you know next time I see one.

Seems like you took it quite personal that I saw some flaws in the movie you didn't find as challenging. Sorry you took it that way.

Meanwhile, if the 'Martha moment' troubles you, yet Steve's lack of proper judgment in how a situation could play out once Tony discovered who killed his parents, not sure how to explain those differences. Other than maybe you are more forgiving of the Marvel flaws because you are emotionally invested in the characters at this point after 12 films. And that's not a bad thing. If anything, Marvel hit the right cord with you.

Now if we are going to argue about Cuba Gooding Jr., gloves are off. That man is a national treasure!

[Midvillian1322]

Seems like you took it quite personal that I saw some flaws in the movie you didn't find as challenging. Sorry you took it that way.

Meanwhile, if the 'Martha moment' troubles you, yet Steve's lack of proper judgment in how a situation could play out once Tony discovered who killed his parents, not sure how to explain those differences. Other than maybe you are more forgiving of the Marvel flaws because you are emotionally invested in the characters at this point after 12 films. And that's not a bad thing. If anything, Marvel hit the right cord with you.

Now if we are going to argue about Cuba Gooding Jr., gloves are off. That man is a national treasure!

I love cuba gooding Jr, i didnt even think he was that bad in radio.

I feel like its false equivalency, your arguing bad writting on steves motivation. Im saying that the martha scene was bad in everyway. That scene deosnt stop me from loving afflek as batman, and canvill looks so perfect as superman i keep giving him the benefit of the doubt. But even the people who loved that movie rarely argue in favor of that scene. The idea on paper sounds good because nothings more.sacred to a boy then his mom but snyders execution made for one the most panned moments in movies last year.

Dc has a hand tied behind theyre back because people have very strong feelings about supes,batman,lex etc... most ppl dont know comic tony is nothing like movie tony. That applys to half the marvel character, i have way less feeling about how you do Zemo to how you do Lex Luthor or the joker. Magneto and Doom are the closes marvels has to that. Magentos been solid because of 2 amazing actors, but Doom well lets not go there. Plus Mcu has no claim to those charatcers, hopefully they get Doom back one day

[Killercroc357]

Magentos been solid because of 2 amazing actors, but Doom well lets not go there

Since this seems to be the thread which serves as the AA meeting for comic book addicts, you MUST share your feelings. It's required!

1) Hi, my name is _________________________.
2) I've hated the cinema portrayal of Doctor Doom for ______________________ days/months/years (please select one).
3) To feel at peace, my Doctor Doom must be ____________________ (enter characteristics or acting traits most pleasing to your picture of Doctor Doom).



But seriously, I hear you. Although I enjoy the 2005 Fantastic Four movie (and the Silver Surfer parts of FF II), Doctor Doom's portrayal is a distraction. I guess because he comes across as a paper-thin portrayal, and a very predictable villain. Put a handlebar moustache on him, and he would probably be twirling it each time he performed an evil act while laughing maniacally.

[Midvillian1322]

Since this seems to be the thread which serves as the AA meeting for comic book addicts, you MUST share your feelings. It's required!

1) Hi, my name is _________________________.
2) I've hated the cinema portrayal of Doctor Doom for ______________________ days/months/years (please select one).
3) To feel at peace, my Doctor Doom must be ____________________ (enter characteristics or acting traits most pleasing to your picture of Doctor Doom).



But seriously, I hear you. Although I enjoy the 2005 Fantastic Four movie (and the Silver Surfer parts of FF II), Doctor Doom's portrayal is a distraction. I guess because he comes across as a paper-thin portrayal, and a very predictable villain. Put a handlebar moustache on him, and he would probably be twirling it each time he performed an evil act while laughing maniacally.

Lol i know right, and its sad since hes one if the more complex charatcers in comics. I find more depth in him then most the F4. Plus hes that earth baseed world threat the MCU needs