What if he doesn't come back?

[SuperCrab]

I think we need to go down this road and consider this as a possibility. What if the New 52 Superman doesn't come back? Would you keep reading?

I doubt it. I think I'll be done, or mostly done. I may even be done or mostly done as soon as they kill off New52 Superman if they haven't pre-announced a return (And that he'll be the focus of at least one on-going book when he returns) by then. I feel strongly about this.

That said, I don't like to put myself in a corner that I might regret later. I don't want to feel I can't read them if I decide to, just as a matter of pride because I said I wouldn't, so I'm not going to say I definitely would be done with Superman comics, just that there's a good chance that I'd be done with them.

I had been subscribing to all the Superman related titles. I've already dropped 3 (Lois and Clark, The Coming of the Supermen, Justice League), and 1 more (Batman-Superman) has ended publication. I am going to drop, in sequence, Action Comics, Superman-Wonder Woman (Which is admittedly the last issue anyway), and Superman as they have their last new52 Superman issues over the course of the next month. Plus, American Alien ends. Then I'll drop Justice League of America whenever it's Rao arc finishes (That might go into next month, I don't know).

If they hold off Superman's death for the line-wide 70 or 80 page Rebirth book that's $2.99, I might get that, or I might not. Actually, that's the same thing I'd say if he were already dead before that- I might get it, I might not. However, the odds of me getting it are much higher if my Superman is in it.

After that, my plan is to look at the individual issue covers and short summaries on the web, maybe read some threads here or reviews, and see whether I feel like buying them each individual issue or not. No subscriptions. Just decide on each issue. And if I don't feel like looking (either a particular week or just in general), I just won't buy that week, or in general. It's not my job to evaluate Superman issues for personal buyability, you know? I'll check if I want to and just forget about it if I don't. I could wind up buying like half of them, I could wind up buying none of them.

It could be that I won't buy any, but then go back and buy them all if they go on sale for 99 cents or $1.50 each or something. Maybe I'll buy some and not others as they come out, and buy the ones I passed on when they go on sale. Maybe I'll buy none of them at all ever, on sale or not.

DC Comics has no loyalty to me and to fellow fans of my favorite character, I see no reason to have any particular loyalty to them.

What could they do that would appeal to me short of bring back new52 Superman and restoring him to his rightful place? Well, nothing that'd be equal to that, obviously, and automatically get me back to where I was before. However, some basic things that would appeal to me along those lines are:

1. Them killing off the Jon White (Kent?) character in the comics, having Jon just be a regular non-superhero kid who is only a minor character who is seen when Superman is hanging out at home, or them pushing all of Jon's superhero stuff out of the main books and into SuperSons (Which I will never buy a single issue of, ever) and left unmentioned completely in the main books would be three options that would help the main Superman titles appeal to me more than the current plans seem to (How much more, I don't know, but more). Doing a Superman book that was announced as not featuring Jon ever would be appealing to me (Relative to the current post-Rebirth plans that I'm aware of), even if it was about his father rather than the new52 Superman.

2. Bryan Hitch is writing one of the best or maybe the best ongoing featuring new52 Superman right now, Justice League of America. He's going to be doing the regular Justice League starting in July. Combined with a great author, if I see that those issues have no Jon in them (and no Damian- really, this isn't asking a lot for a *Justice League* title, which doesn't usually have side characters featured, because it has 5 or more main characters to balance already), that'd help. A Justice League that is initially mourning new52 Superman and suspicious of SuperDad and has angry words with him would help.

Then when they do finally accept him not just just acting like he's always been there, and them continuing to remember the real Superman would help. It'd also help if they avoid the sort of shadow ret-con route of after a while just never mentioning the new52 Superman, never mentioning SuperDad's other universe-like origins after a certain point, and describing the past without mentioning that it was another Superman was there. I want new52 Superman to keep getting mentioned where appropriate and I want them to always point out that SuperDad isn't from this universe where appropriate. SuperDad doesn't get to be the leader, he isn't their Superman, he's just a new superhero from another universe they are breaking in, after they come to trust him, which should not come easily, and should not come at the expense of them remembering new52 Superman.

3. In general on these titles, it helps if something that's interesting to me is happening and not something boring. I'm describing that kind of broadly, so let me be more specific. The book titled "Superman: Rebirth #1" is about Superdad being worried about his son and chasing someone who's after him- I'm unlikely to get that. Then the first two issues of the Superman title have solicitation descriptions that are all about Jon directly, like parenting issues and Jon using his powers to fight people, I'm even less likely to get them than the preceding story. The third issue (or fourth, if you count the "Superman Rebirth" one) features Eradicator, but hints that Superdad loses to him and Jon beats him, which gets plus points for actually having a freaking Superman-type plot, and minus points for SuperJon (aka a pre-teen never-aging Wesley Crusher) saving the day, so probably is about at the same level of not buying.

The Action Comics solicitations post-rebirth that seem to involve mostly the other universe's Superman interacting with Lex Luthor and fighting Doomsday and doing, well, Superman stuff, and there being a Daily Planet angle (I like the journalism aspects of the Superman mythos that they keep ignoring) with a Clark Kent who is not Superman and Lois Lane trying to figure out who this weird older Superman is, those seem more like issues I'd consider buying on a surface level. However, that's relative to the Superman issues mentioned in the previous paragraph. I still don't like that Superdad is in them and I don't entirely trust that Dan Jurgens, who created the Jon character and evangelizes him and talks about him being his Legacy in DC Comics and making sure he's all over the place will really give us stories that aren't about him. I may ask around the forum on release day and see what the people who buy them can tell me about the level of "Jon" content and then consider getting individual issues if it's really low- or even waiting out whole story arcs and then asking about how much Jon figured in, and maybe getting those arcs if the answer is "Almost not at all".

It's sort of ironic that in the early going the Jurgens series issue soliticians seem to feature people like Luthor and Doomsday and less Jon, and the Tomasi series issue soliticians seem like the book should be titled "The Adventures of SuperJon", isn't it? I mean, considering Jurgens is the Jon character's creator and biggest advocate, and loves writing SuperDad, and Tomasi as far as we know was just told "Here's the new status quo, go write us some books" and could have been against the death of new52 Superman or SuperJon or whatever as far as we know, it's really odd that Tomasi gets stuck with what seem like the "It's tough parenting a superhero 10 year old who's better than Superman" type issues. I guess they were probably assigned to him because he wrote that Damian book (I also don't like Damian and never read an issue of that) for a while.

Anyway, I already am taking it as a given that new52 Superman won't be back permanently to take back his rightful place unless sales flag. So, no difference if they announce it now or just stay silent. I'm not going to let them win sales from me with what may be false hope. The announcement that new52 Superman will definitely come back and take the books back in a set period of time and that SuperDad would be retiring or going back to his own universe or whatever at the end of the story arc, would have saved probably all the subs. I can sit through a story arc that has it's bad points. But they aren't saying, and are implying this is the new status quo, so I am assuming it is, and going from there.

[SuperCrab]

Oh, and I'm undecided on New Super-Man (Kennan Kong) and Superwoman. Not interested in their plans for Supergirl, won't be getting that (Wasn't getting it before either, though).

[Sacred Knight]

I'm just bemused and shake my head over all this. I am giving it a shot because I've been reading for 25 year and I've pretty much seen it all. It is still Superman ultimately. I do wish they just did the smart thing and just write Superman Red/ Nuperman like the guy in Superman#51. No stunts. No gimmicks. Just write him like Superman. You want him with Lois and give them a son? There are ways to do that without pissing off a sizable chunk of the fanbase by swaping Supermen like they are interchangeable pieces.

As much as I feared they'd merge them, I am starting to think given what we know now, doing that may not have been such a bad idea.

Thing is I don't think they really have a strong desire to have him married. I mean, these are the same guys who got rid of it in the first place. They knew it was floundering before, so it doesn't make much sense for them to have totally done a 180 in this five year timespan without significant evidence they had made a mistake. Quite contrary though, the evidence within that timeframe supports they made the right decision there, mainly in light of the very poor sales of L&C. The uncommon denominator here is Jon, so I think that is what they (or at least Didio) are really aiming at. I believe the kid is what's wanted, the marriage just goes with it. Does it make sense to go through all this to get there? In my mind no, not by a long shot. But someone, again, probably Didio, really, really, REALLY wants the Jon Superboy. We know this because there's been a drive for it since the New 52 started. With that in mind, while I don't think it makes sense to go through all this to get him, I totally believe that he/they think its worth it to go through all this to get him. Its just another reason to be down on the idea, as its not really about Superman at all. Or Lois. Or anyone else but this new character someone high up is pushing. I know some think its crazy to think they're doing it all for that character, and I agree it is nuts, but I'll be damned if I don't think the evidence supports that it is.

That's not my main reason for hating this though. It has been from the beginning and will always remain how it kills the immersion of the lore to me to feature Superman as a character not even from the universe the rest of the line is taking place on. That's the deal-breaker. I could roll with a Jon Kent Superboy forced on me. I've rolled with a lot worse. I stuck with New 52 Superboy when they first started pushing the idea in its initial stages, as poorly as that one was conceived. So I'm more than willing to give chances to ideas that make me uneasy. Just not this one. Its my line. Wouldn't matter to me which past version they chose. Or if they chose a brand new version from a new alternate Earth we haven't seen before. Bottom-line is, any alternate acting as the main guy on an Earth not his own = no sale.

[Flash Gordon]

Sacred brings up a great point, I didn't even think of. They've been pushing all sorts of Jon Superboys from alternate time lines since they started mucking up Kon-El. This seems to be on order from someone higher up in editorial.

I don't mind Clark having a son, and I'm all for him being with Lois, but this whole thing is a mess.

[Sacred Knight]

Yeah, that's the funny and sad thing. Had they done this in the early to mid 2000s for Superman, when it actually made sense, it could have really been something special. Yet now over a decade later they decide they want it, when doing so is like trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

[misslane]

Thing is I don't think they really have a strong desire to have him married. I mean, these are the same guys who got rid of it in the first place. They knew it was floundering before, so it doesn't make much sense for them to have totally done a 180 in this five year timespan without significant evidence they had made a mistake. Quite contrary though, the evidence within that timeframe supports they made the right decision there, mainly in light of the very poor sales of L&C. The uncommon denominator here is Jon, so I think that is what they (or at least Didio) are really aiming at. I believe the kid is what's wanted, the marriage just goes with it. Does it make sense to go through all this to get there? In my mind no, not by a long shot. But someone, again, probably Didio, really, really, REALLY wants the Jon Superboy. We know this because there's been a drive for it since the New 52 started. With that in mind, while I don't think it makes sense to go through all this to get him, I totally believe that he/they think its worth it to go through all this to get him. Its just another reason to be down on the idea, as its not really about Superman at all. Or Lois. Or anyone else but this new character someone high up is pushing. I know some think its crazy to think they're doing it all for that character, and I agree it is nuts, but I'll be damned if I don't think the evidence supports that it is.

The sales for L&C aren't indicative of much in terms of what they're doing now. That book was always pitched as a mini-series and one with characters who were out of their element. People want to read about Superman. They want to read about him living in his world with his supporting cast, at The Daily Planet where Lois can be an out in the open badass reporter, and they want to read about a Superman who actually matters to the rest of the stories. L&C may have been on New 52's Earth, but they might as well have been on Mars, because their book had no impact or relevance to other books. Knowing it was going to be such a short run and all of the other aforementioned issues was, I'm sure, plenty discouragement for people to not put the book on their pull list. It still did okay, and did well digitally. But using L&C's sales as if it's a completely fair indicator of a fully realized Superman with enough relevance and verisimilitude to what was the current Superman and universe on the stage, as it were, just isn't fair.

[Sacred Knight]

I think its fair to assess it at face value. American Alien was pitched as a mini-series, one completely outside of continuity and written by a writer who purposely wanted to take the character a bit out of his element too. It wasn't a Superman tale till the end, and even now its quite a different take. It was packaged and advertised with the same, if not more, supposed handicaps. And it did quite a bit better. So I don't necessarily buy the excuse for L&C's low sales on more a psychological effect than anything else as particularly persuasive. But, why books sell the way they do aside, I still stand by my original point that Jon is the nucleus of this entire endeavor.

[adrikito]

I imagine that possibility.. I have already fear for the years that DC missing Hal Jordan and Barry Allen .. And here substitute is identical to the man who replaces.

For now I'll leave superman .. in this case I would never read superman, it is not impossible, look at the old fans, nobody buys what he does not want.. batman will became in my god.

In that case I would understand those disappointments that takes fans with controversial changes...

[Myskin]

Nuperman coming back is completely irrelevant at this point, at least to me.

I realize that I am in the minority here, but I really can't get involved in the whole Nuperman vs Superdad debate, mainly for one reason: I don't think that the two characters are so radically different one from the other to really get angry. I agree that the whole introduction of SuperDad poses a huge problem concerning linear narration and continuity, but I don't think that Nuperman was such a well-developed, distinct character as someone thinks him to be. Nuperman and Superdad are the same character with some minor differences - especially concerning their personal relationships.

That doesn't mean that I'm satisfied with the most recent outcomes of DC concerning Superman, but I realize that what I would really like to see in a Superman comic book right now is something which DC will probably never give to me and fans aren't generally asking for. So... I think that after American Alien I am done with mainstream Superman books, at least for a while - I'll just get some updates now and then about the developments of the situation.

[manofsteel1979]

I think its fair to assess it at face value. American Alien was pitched as a mini-series, one completely outside of continuity and written by a writer who purposely wanted to take the character a bit out of his element too. It wasn't a Superman tale till the end, and even now its quite a different take. It was packaged and advertised with the same, if not more, supposed handicaps. And it did quite a bit better. So I don't necessarily buy the excuse for L&C's low sales on more a psychological effect than anything else as particularly persuasive. But, why books sell the way they do aside, I still stand by my original point that Jon is the nucleus of this entire endeavor.

The one main difference is was the curiosity factor of Max Landis writting " his" Superman. Also, there is the fact Jurgens wrote Superman for 13 years on a regular basis once and sporatically since he left in 1999. That has a certain built in audience that came but didn't set the charts on fire because it was a case of " been there, done that." In a mini series most others were trade waiting because it at first just seemed like an insignificant side project relegated to a limited series that everyone just assumed would either spin off into another unimportant mini series or spin back into the main Superman books as a sub plot. I can guarantee if anyone thought that this was the route DC was going with This Superman becoming the main one, sales would have been better.

It will be interesting what the final sales numbers for #7 and #8 are compared to #6, and what the sales for the trade are now knowing that it's the beginning of all of this.

[manofsteel1979]

Nuperman coming back is completely irrelevant at this point, at least to me.

I realize that I am in the minority here, but I really can't get involved in the whole Nuperman vs Superdad debate, mainly for one reason: I don't think that the two characters are so radically different one from the other to really get angry. I agree that the whole introduction of SuperDad poses a huge problem concerning linear narration and continuity, but I don't think that Nuperman was such a well-developed, distinct character as someone thinks him to be. Nuperman and Superdad are the same character with some minor differences - especially concerning their personal relationships.

That doesn't mean that I'm satisfied with the most recent outcomes of DC concerning Superman, but I realize that what I would really like to see in a Superman comic book right now is something which DC will probably never give to me and fans aren't generally asking for. So... I think that after American Alien I am done with mainstream Superman books, at least for a while - I'll just get some updates now and then about the developments of the situation.

Aside from the last few lines, you mirror my own thoughts on all this pretty closely. I understand Nuperman has his hardcore fans, and I liked the guy when he's written well, but other than the Lois/Diana thing and the suit, he's not that radically different from Superdad. The attitude thing people bring up is more on the writting than anything. are the same guy essentially and until CONVERGENCE, he WAS literally the same guy who had his continuity altered. He was billed as such. I think the convoluted nature of all this is stupid and creates narriative problems that are hard to overcome, but it's still really the same guy.

[Myskin]

Aside from the last few lines, you mirror my own thoughts on all this pretty closely. I understand Nuperman has his hardcore fans, and I liked the guy when he's written well, but other than the Lois/Diana thing and the suit, he's not that radically different from Superdad. The attitude thing people bring up is more on the writting than anything. are the same guy essentially and until CONVERGENCE, he WAS literally the same guy who had his continuity altered. He was billed as such. I think the convoluted nature of all this is stupid and creates narriative problems that are hard to overcome, but it's still really the same guy.

I should add that in the current situation DC writers are apparently doing their best to emphasize differences between the Supermen, even if such differences have no real reasons to exist. This "conflict" between the two characters is a specious one. What makes me a bit disillusioned is that lots of fans are apparently getting involved in the debate even if it is a completely fake one. People should ask for a Dieselpunk Metropolis where writers could create complex plots à la China Miéville, and they souldn't get involved in SuperDad v Nuperman trifles.

[manofsteel1979]

I should add that in the current situation DC writers are apparently doing their best to emphasize differences between the Supermen, even if such differences have no real reasons to exist. This "conflict" between the two characters is a specious one. What makes me a bit disillusioned is that lots of fans are apparently getting involved in the debate even if it is a completely fake one. People should ask for a Dieselpunk Metropolis where writers could create complex plots à la China Miéville, and they souldn't get involved in SuperDad v Nuperman trifles.

To tie in to my thread, I really do think that fora sizable and vocal minority of Superman fans of either versions, I think the core of this debate comes down to the ships.

Those that think the WW/ SM pairing should be the permanent status quo going forward automatically hate Superdad while the hardcore Clois shippers hate Nuperman and are practically salivating over his impending death. I know that doesn't apply to everyone, but I find that is where the intense hatred of either and the hyperbole of "Nuperman is an unrepentant bullying monsterous jerk" and Superdad being a "spineless whipped coward" are rooted in.

Both assesments can be true if you just base who they are on their worst runs. ( Lobdell and the low points of Truth for Nuperman, Grounded and parts of Sacrifice for Superdad.) Most of the time when Superman is written correctly, both are identical in every way that's important.

[Ascended]

To tie in to my thread, I really do think that fora sizable and vocal minority of Superman fans of either versions, I think the core of this debate comes down to the ships.

Those that think the WW/ SM pairing should be the permanent status quo going forward automatically hate Superdad while the hardcore Clois shippers hate Nuperman and are practically salivating over his impending death. I know that doesn't apply to everyone, but I find that is where the intense hatred of either and the hyperbole of "Nuperman is an unrepentant bullying monsterous jerk" and Superdad being a "spineless whipped coward" are rooted in.

Both assesments can be true if you just base who they are on their worst runs. ( Lobdell and the low points of Truth for Nuperman, Grounded and parts of Sacrifice for Superdad.) Most of the time when Superman is written correctly, both are identical in every way that's important.

I dunno man, the shipping wars seem to only be a thing for a couple posters here. They're certainly vocal, but Im pretty sure I could count all of them on my hands.

As for the L&C sales, that is a completely viable thing to take on. It has been outsold by American Alien and, if I recall correctly, Coming of the Supermen. Both are out of continuity mini's doing unusual stuff and AA can barely be called a Superman story at all, and while Adams and Landis certainly pull their share of "curiosity purchases" Jurgens is supposed to have a built in fanbase of his own. The reviews, from what I have seen, are pretty mixed.

Obviously Action is going to pull more numbers than L&C since its the flagship title, but L&C and Superdad have shown nothing to indicate that its going to sell better than what we have right now once the Rebirth hype dies down.

Had L&C sales been better, or had it gotten glowing reviews across the board the way some books like Dial H or Starman did, then I could see an argument for this being good business. But all it looks like is desperation.

[adrikito]

Those that think the WW/ SM pairing should be the permanent status quo going forward automatically hate Superdad while the hardcore Clois shippers hate Nuperman and are practically salivating over his impending death. I know that doesn't apply to everyone, but I find that is where the intense hatred of either and the hyperbole of "Nuperman is an unrepentant bullying monsterous jerk" and Superdad being a "spineless whipped coward" are rooted in.

Both assesments can be true if you just base who they are on their worst runs. ( Lobdell and the low points of Truth for Nuperman, Grounded and parts of Sacrifice for Superdad.) Most of the time when Superman is written correctly, both are identical in every way that's important.

Right now I am willing to give up a little.

DC unite N52 Superman and N52Lois(with or without powers) as a couple again Boyfriends, to see if this change in new52 superman calm old fans. But ..

Don´t change the Superman for Superdad, neither the little in his personality(old fans.. Lois is enough) that makes Superman different than Superdad...

I admit that this little moment between them in Superman 51, I liked. I would be able to accept this again(without superdad). Maybe is because inside and outside of the comics they have always a couple.

---------

Although, always cry for the fate of Diana .. Trevor ..I hate he. maybe it was the reason that encouraged me more not separated she from superman, I knew that she would come back with that idiot.

Darkseid War you have disappointed, you and Miracle&Barda were used as an excuse to unite them, We lost 2 chapters with that.. and more.. Chapters that could be used to lena luthor, aquaman ... etc.. kalibab do not like me, but he was still on earth and now nothing..