What if he doesn't come back?

[manofsteel1979]

nuperman is much more brash, agressive and arrogant than pre52superman. For me it is significative difference on personality

Compared to the guy we had just before Flashpoint? Perhaps, but that is from his most passive and ineffective period. The Superman from the early to mid 90s ? He was just as much of a tough cookie as Nuperman. Perhaps with a slightly longer fuse, but not THAT different. TRUTH not withstanding.

[misslane]

Sorry, all I see are excuses here. It can also be argued that out-of-continuity books sell worse, so AA and CotS are handicapped in ways L&C isn't too. But they still sell better.

And all I see is denial from you in order to force something to fit your point of view. If you're arguing that both types of books could have their own handicaps (i.e. some might be deterred by out of continuity while others might be deterred by an in-continuity story they aren't up to date with) then you're essentially making them even and creating a moot point. It's especially complicated by the fact that L&C was doubly handicapped since it fell somewhere in the middle: it was in continuity but so separate that it might as well have been out of it. Its relevance has only come to light recently given "Rebirth" news. Besides, I'm not making "excuses." Those factors were real, and excuses aren't invalid. If a child gets excused from an absence, it's for a legitimate reason like an illness; it's wrong to be so dismissive.

Now, if those review collections are accurate then L&C does a bit better than I had thought, but its still not that much beyond the rest of the line, and I would imagine that the lackluster quality of Truth also drove the main titles' down too, so the difference is likely even less than what you shared (just assuming on this one of course).

More proof that you let your bias and assumptions drive your judgments instead of a thoughtful and comprehensive examination of all factors and data. Oh, and mentioning Truth as justification, dare I say excuse, for the main titles being "driven down" is exactly the kind of impact that several poor arcs during the Post-Crisis had. The potential of these characters isn't limited or defined by their worst moments.

My point is, the book is not doing so well that moving Superdad into the top position is good business. Can it be argued that it does well enough that keeping him around is a smart choice? I'd certainly think so. But replacing the proper Superman of this continuity? That's overkill and its just not supported by the numbers. Attempts to prove otherwise are just twisting the facts, like an accountant who screws with the variable overhead to make the bottom line look more appealing. The numbers suggest, at the very most, that splitting the main titles between the two might be a good call. At the most, and even then I would be wary of it.

The sales are irrelevant, because whatever deficit exists could be mitigated by several new factors, including the pomp and promotion of a relaunch of this scale and the move to primary Superman status and star in several books that are linked and relevant to the main continuity. My view is that there is a certain core readership that will read Superman regardless of what version it is, and so I don't think it is at all a dumb choice to look at all the variables involved and consider that some kind of shot in the arm was needed, and you can't do that by doing things as usual with New 52 Superman. Attempts to suggest otherwise look like denial and placing New 52 Superman on too much of a pedestal.

What we have is a middling miniseries about a character who historically hasn't done too well, who currently isnt setting anything on fire, replacing a character who is in basically the same boat but has a more recent track record of success (2011-2014 were strong years). This is a zero-sum game at best.

Oh come on. Historically hasn't done well? The whole history of the character doesn't indicate that he doesn't do well, and when he hasn't it, like New 52 Superman, has been down to crossovers, events, and just poor writing in general. The New 52 Superman's duration of success can only be measured in 5 years while the Post-Crisis Superman had almost 5 times that. One could probably take a 5-year sample of Post-Crisis Superman's run and compare it to New 52 Superman's and judge him to be the more successful one. If we're talking recently, well then Superman isn't just his character. It's his world, the concept of the book he's in, the timing in terms of events like relaunches, and the creators involved. Given those conditions, it would be taking a chance on either version of Superman, but at least with this one they have some new built in toys to play with and something they can legitimately trumpet as game changing enough to qualify for a relaunch event.

[Tayswift]

Sorry, all I see are excuses here. It can also be argued that out-of-continuity books sell worse, so AA and CotS are handicapped in ways L&C isn't too. But they still sell better.

Now, if those review collections are accurate then L&C does a bit better than I had thought, but its still not that much beyond the rest of the line, and I would imagine that the lackluster quality of Truth also drove the main titles' down too, so the difference is likely even less than what you shared (just assuming on this one of course).

My point is, the book is not doing so well that moving Superdad into the top position is good business. Can it be argued that it does well enough that keeping him around is a smart choice? I'd certainly think so. But replacing the proper Superman of this continuity? That's overkill and its just not supported by the numbers. Attempts to prove otherwise are just twisting the facts, like an accountant who screws with the variable overhead to make the bottom line look more appealing. The numbers suggest, at the very most, that splitting the main titles between the two might be a good call. At the most, and even then I would be wary of it.

What we have is a middling miniseries about a character who historically hasn't done too well, who currently isnt setting anything on fire, replacing a character who is in basically the same boat but has a more recent track record of success (2011-2014 were strong years). This is a zero-sum game at best.

you are completely forgeting that new 52 superman blew up faster, in five years sales went down and readers abandoning the ship. pre52supes took it much longer to burned down.

It's pretty easy to see why american alien/coming of superman are more successful: they have stars as writers. Max landis has a good fanbase outside of comics and already reading comics. Many people saying that this is their first comics series. Neal adams enough said.

Jurgens is a solid writer but ultimately he lacks good books and sales. I see a bunch of people wanting him to retire from writing comics.

bring pre52supes back might not be a good idea, it complicates things that shouldn't need to be complicate.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Sorry, all I see are excuses here. It can also be argued that out-of-continuity books sell worse, so AA and CotS are handicapped in ways L&C isn't too. But they still sell better.

The excuses for Lois & Clark's poor performance has been in full force ever since the sales data for the 1st issue came out.

The book has been a complete sales failure. As you've said it's been outsold by two other out of continuity Superman stories, and is one of the worst selling Superman books (in print) in recent memory. The most recent Superman book that I can remember that's sold this poorly is Superman/Supergirl: Maelstrom.

Digitally, the main Superman books and American Alien have outsold it every single time. I can't say if Coming of the Supermen did as well, because I don't remember how it charted relative to Lois & Clark, but American Alien has not only outsold Lois & Clark digitally, but the main Superman books as well.

But it gets worse. Since Lois & Clark is not a Ms. Marvel/Mighty Thor/Saga type seller in digital sales, it's issues would cap out around the 8000-10, 000 range. As of issue 5, it's high end estimate of digital + print sales would fall around 32, 775. That's just 1279 copes more than Action Comic's print sales alone, and still less than Superman. March's issue didn't even make 18, 000, so it's digital + print sales would be even less than Action Comic's February print sales.

As far as I'm aware, it's the lowest selling Superman series in the last five years, and one of the lowest in the last ten. There's no excuse for how poorly it has been doing.

[misslane]

The excuses for Lois & Clark's poor performance has been in full force ever since the sales data for the 1st issue came out.

The book has been a complete sales failure. As you've said it's been outsold by two other out of continuity Superman stories, and is one of the worst selling Superman books (in print) in recent memory. The only Superman book that I can remember that's sold this poorly that I can think of is Superman/Supergirl: Maelstrom.

Digitally, the main Superman and American Alien have outsold it every single time. I can't say if Comic of the Supermen did as well, because I don't remember how it charted relative to Lois & Clark, but American Alien has not only outsold Lois & Clark digitally, but the main Superman books as well.

But it gets worse. Since Lois & Clark is not a Ms. Marvel/Mighty Thor/Saga type seller in digital sales, it's issues would cap out around the 8000-10, 000 range. As of issue 5, it's high end estimate of digital + print sales would fall around 32, 775. That's just 1279 copes more than Action Comics print sales alone, and still less than Superman. March's issue didn't even make 18, 000, so it's digital + print sales would be even less than Action Comic's February print sales.

As far as I'm aware, it's the lowest selling Superman series in the last five years, and one of the lowest in the last ten. There's no excuse for how poorly it has been doing.

L&C isn't out of continuity, yet it isn't in continuity either. It's in continuity in that it's supposed to link up to what happened in Convergence and be taking place on the main Earth; yet it is taking place in the main Earth is irrelevant because it's not integrated into the plots and characters of that world. American Alien has no barriers in that it's not connected to any continuity; L&C is. The way L&C is, however, doesn't integrate it into the main titles, so it's handicapped both ways. Moreover, the characters aren't allowed to act as the traditional Superman cast either. There is no Superman suit or Daily Planet, for example. It also doesn't have a star writer like Landis at the helm who is free to do what he likes. American Alien is also more episodic, so no storylines to keep up with, and it gets star artists for each issue allowing each to act a lot like a debut issue. L&C was not as blessed.

These aren't excuses so much as valid explanations for why the book doesn't sell as well in the same way that if one were comparing Captain America: Winter Soldier's box office ($260 million) to Ant-Man's ($180 million). For a niche book like this, without a star creator like Landis, to do as well as it has is quite satisfactory. Plus, comparing L&C, which isn't a main title, isn't a part of a crossover, and doesn't get as many variants to main titles seems a bit of a stretch.

Also, more to the point, what is the relevance of this to the sales potential of pre-FP Superman when he's given the red carpet treatment in terms of promotion, integration, relevance, and just getting to be himself and getting to bring some of his more useful elements (e.g. Jon) to the table? Is it really so certain that whatever affected the sales of L&C will affect the Rebirth titles? Because I think that's a foolish conclusion to make. The only way you can conclude that is if you genuinely believe that L&C and mainstream Superman comics are one hundred percent comparable with no relevant variables, not even a relaunch push, to consider. Is that what you believe?

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

I think we need to go down this road and consider this as a possibility. What if the New 52 Superman doesn't come back? Would you keep reading?

If New 52 Superman doesn't come back, I think it'll be because the Superman Universe following Rebirth has been such a huge success that they don't want to go back to how things were before.

In that case, it means things worked out for the best.

[Sacred Knight]

Hey if its a massive success then its a massive success. I'd be able to do nothing more than tip my hat and say they had the right idea and move on, as its still not for me. But I have extremely high doubts its going to be that kind of success, and furthermore I'm still wholly confident that its not even a wait and see situation. New 52 Superman coming back is part of this process of this ultimate storyline. I believe it every day that goes by. Hell I even believe Tomasi has been hinting as much.

[misslane]

Hey if its a massive success then its a massive success. I'd be able to do nothing more than tip my hat and say they had the right idea and move on, as its still not for me. But I have extremely high doubts its going to be that kind of success, and furthermore I'm still wholly confident that its not even a wait and see situation. New 52 Superman coming back is part of this process of this ultimate storyline. I believe it every day that goes by. Hell I even believe Tomasi has been hinting as much.

"That kind of success"? What "kind of success" has it been suggested that it will be? What is the definition of success? If it increases sales by x% for 1 year, 2 years? If it is a success, then should we be advocating for a reversion to New 52 Superman? Even then, if he does come back, after what has happened with the Superman universe and even Batman and especially Rucka's Wonder Woman, he could be different and so could the narrative context in which he develops. New 52 Superman, as he is now, really can never return. Meaning, he could come back but I can't see his character or his story feeling like he never left. Things will change.

[Sacred Knight]

The type of success that would make them consider to just leave Superdad in the role and and leave New 52 Superman on the shelf. IOW, a noticeable and sustained increase over what the New 52 Superman did in his first year or so. At least, I think a year would be a worthy gauge. But I'm not a businessman either so that's just a complete layman's thought process. As for if we should be advocating a return of New 52 Superman in rhetorical event that it indeed goes over really well, I can't speak for anyone else but for me personally, yes I still would. Even if the sales are good I'd still want him back. That's just personal taste. I have no interest in this version at all. So yes I'm an advocate of him returning regardless what happens sales-wise.

Again though, in my personal opinion its a completely rhetorical thought as I fully believe that its not even a wait and see process. That New 52 Superman's return is entirely part of the layout of this large storyline. And of course they would play on the implications of what happened during the time he was gone. Things will indeed move forward. New things will have happened with Wonder Woman. New things will have occurred with Lois. With Lex. He'll have a lot of catching up to do, with likely all his relationships being affected by it. But if written right, it should be an intriguing piece of his return.

[SuperCrab]

New52 Superman has consistently exceeded the sales of Pre-Flashpoint Superman towards the end of Pre-Flashpoint Superman's run. In fact, Superman #50 just sold over 90,000 copies. Yes, new52 Superman's sales dipped during the Truth arc, but not as far as PF Superman dipped, and the second they put him back in costume and did a special issue wrapping up the arc, sales basically doubled.

People who want to go back and say "Well, Pre-Flashpoint Superman sold great in 1987" or 1992 or 1997 or whatever (I'm pulling years out of a hat, essentially, not picking years that necessarily had any special significance for Superman or who's sale numbers I even know) are really talking about a different world comics wise. 2010 or early 2011 or whenever PF Superman's run ended wasn't a different world, though. The fact that new52 Superman exceeds those numbers even as DC Comics overall has lost share to Marvel Comics and there has been less demand for heroes like Superman from the comic buying public is telling and I think a feather in the cap of new52 Superman.

PF Superman's sales went down after he got married, if I recall correctly. The marriage issue and the immediate aftermath and such sold well, but there was always controversy over the marriage, with a certain segment of the fan base liking it, and another segment disliking it. Now they've added a Mary Sue character for children, in a 10 year old superhero son of the couple who is more powerful than his father, and who no responsible parent, least of all Superman, protector of children, would allow to risk his life at that age, before he is mature enough to make life and death decisions. That, unless people have gone crazy, should make SuperDad less popular than ever, perhaps disregarding an initial sales spike.

I mean, really, can they even count on the people who lived this version of Superman to come back to stay after five years out of the game for some of them, and to see a Superman who was willing to sit for 10 years and watch bad things happen without helping in the world? Will they tolerate the "super" kid and Superdad condoning him risking his life regularly at age 10 (Remember, this kid wasn't in those old comics)? Will those fans like this PF-Superman in the new52 universe? I think when they said they wanted PF-Superman back, they probably meant the universe, too, not as an outsider in a different dead Superman's universe.

This is insane, especially coming on the hells of new52 Superman selling 90,000+ copies of a recent issue. This is not the time to cut bait on him.

And if this *were* the time to cut bait on him, the solution wouldn't be to go back to the past, and then add an annoying super kid to the mix on top of it, the solution would be to go forward and try an even more modernized radical adult-oriented reboot than new52 Superman.

This is not the long term right direction for the line. They may get a short-lived nostalgia bump, but I think their sales will plummet in the end.

And, you know, I'm willing to admit, I could be wrong. But even if the sales are amazing, I don't like this direction and I still say the hell with it. They should have at least, even in that event, tossed new52 Superman fans some sort of bone- like let him explore space in a book as a Green Lantern, or have a lost in the multiverse book, or whatever. They gave us nothing. That's how they treat the fans who bought and read their books of the last 5 years faithfully, spending a lot of time and money and emotional investment in this guy. They just say, oh, you'll never see him further development, he's gone for a guy who's already had 5x that time to develop, that other guys needs more. And did they kind of treat fans of PF-Superman the same way 5 years ago? Yeah. Was that also kind of wrong? Yeah. Doesn't seem like they're learning from their mistakes treating new52 Superman fans the same way.

[GreenLanternRanger]

I don't care if he returns or not. If we can keep getting good Superman stories from Rebirth, that's all I need.

[misslane]

New52 Superman has consistently exceeded the sales of Pre-Flashpoint Superman towards the end of Pre-Flashpoint Superman's run.

How do you figure that?

Pre-Flashpoint sales for June 2011:

Action Comics 902---------41,960
Superman 712---------37,362

Pre-Flashpoint sales for July 2011:

Action Comics 903---------40,205
Superman 713---------36,646

Pre-Flashpoint sales for August 2011:

Action Comics 904*---------39,323
Superman 714*---------35,919

*Final Issue


New 52 Sales for January 2016:

Superman 48---------37,690
Action Comics 48---------31,958

New 52 Sales for February 2016:

Superman 49---------36,318
Action Comics 49---------31,496

New 52 Sales for March 2016:

Superman* 50---------91,396
Action Comics 50*---------40,025

*50th Issue

In fact, Superman #50 just sold over 90,000 copies. Yes, new52 Superman's sales dipped during the Truth arc, but not as far as PF Superman dipped, and the second they put him back in costume and did a special issue wrapping up the arc, sales basically doubled.

Are you sure about that?

[misslane]

People who want to go back and say "Well, Pre-Flashpoint Superman sold great in 1987" or 1992 or 1997 or whatever (I'm pulling years out of a hat, essentially, not picking years that necessarily had any special significance for Superman or who's sale numbers I even know) are really talking about a different world comics wise. 2010 or early 2011 or whenever PF Superman's run ended wasn't a different world, though. The fact that new52 Superman exceeds those numbers even as DC Comics overall has lost share to Marvel Comics and there has been less demand for heroes like Superman from the comic buying public is telling and I think a feather in the cap of new52 Superman.

I'm not sure I get your analysis here. Comics are easier to learn about and access these days, and it's a lot more mainstream to like superheroes as well. I don't feel like either Superman has an advantage over the other.

PF Superman's sales went down after he got married, if I recall correctly. The marriage issue and the immediate aftermath and such sold well, but there was always controversy over the marriage, with a certain segment of the fan base liking it, and another segment disliking it. Now they've added a Mary Sue character for children, in a 10 year old superhero son of the couple who is more powerful than his father, and who no responsible parent, least of all Superman, protector of children, would allow to risk his life at that age, before he is mature enough to make life and death decisions. That, unless people have gone crazy, should make SuperDad less popular than ever, perhaps disregarding an initial sales spike.

Lots of things can be controversial. Superman and Wonder Woman dating was controversial. The concept behind Truth was controversial. That's neither here nor there in terms of success or quality. As for the marriage in terms of sales, how can one even attribute sales declines to the marriage alone? It is fallacious reasoning, specifically a post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy, and so blaming the marriage comes across as you having an agenda or a personal axe to grind rather than making a sound argument. You reveal your irrational and biased mindset even more when you label Jon a "Mary Sue" (the male term is actually "Gary Stu") without any analysis to back that up. It's a very facile and often misused and overused complaint. How do you know all that you're accusing Jonathan of anyway? Until you read the actual stories, I think disparaging him is jumping the gun and unfair.

I mean, really, can they even count on the people who lived this version of Superman to come back to stay after five years out of the game for some of them, and to see a Superman who was willing to sit for 10 years and watch bad things happen without helping in the world? Will they tolerate the "super" kid and Superdad condoning him risking his life regularly at age 10 (Remember, this kid wasn't in those old comics)? Will those fans like this PF-Superman in the new52 universe? I think when they said they wanted PF-Superman back, they probably meant the universe, too, not as an outsider in a different dead Superman's universe.

This Superman didn't let bad things happen. He got involved and often helped out with other problems that the other Superman wasn't dealing with. It was also established in the story that he often suffered from power fluctuations, so there were likely times that he wasn't able to help. As for the rest, you won't have to wait long to get an answer to your questions. However, I think the more pertinent question is what will be the quantitative difference between the pre-Flashpoint fans who may be turned off for the reasons you stated versus those who won't care AND the New 52 fans (i.e. new readers) who won't care because they just want to read about Superman. There's also brand new fans to consider who may be jumping into the books following their interest in films and television series. I don't think Rebirth's success is all down to pre- versus post-Flashpoint fans.

This is insane, especially coming on the hells of new52 Superman selling 90,000+ copies of a recent issue. This is not the time to cut bait on him.

That 90,000 in sales was for a landmark 50th issue. It was also the month BvS Superman came out complete with themed variant covers. I wouldn't base so much optimism about the New 52 on that one success alone.

And if this *were* the time to cut bait on him, the solution wouldn't be to go back to the past, and then add an annoying super kid to the mix on top of it, the solution would be to go forward and try an even more modernized radical adult-oriented reboot than new52 Superman.

Why is that the obvious or ideal solution? Just because you would like it more? And, may I ask, how much have you read of Jon? How can you know that he is annoying?

This is not the long term right direction for the line. They may get a short-lived nostalgia bump, but I think their sales will plummet in the end.

Of course you do.

[Tayswift]

How do you figure that?

Pre-Flashpoint sales for June 2011:

Action Comics 902---------41,960
Superman 712---------37,362

Pre-Flashpoint sales for July 2011:

Action Comics 903---------40,205
Superman 713---------36,646

Pre-Flashpoint sales for August 2011:

Action Comics 904*---------39,323
Superman 714*---------35,919

*Final Issue


New 52 Sales for January 2016:

Superman 48---------37,690
Action Comics 48---------31,958

New 52 Sales for February 2016:

Superman 49---------36,318
Action Comics 49---------31,496

New 52 Sales for March 2016:

Superman* 50---------91,396
Action Comics 50*---------40,025

*50th Issue



Are you sure about that?

the improvement on sales done by the reboot faded away pretty quickly, even with stunts like variant covers that increase the orders.

That 90,000 in sales was for a landmark 50th issue. It was also the month BvS Superman came out complete with themed variant covers. I wouldn't base so much optimism about the New 52 on that one success alone.

it had variant cover that connects with batman too
http://comicbookinvest.com/2016/03/0...rman-variants/
http://www.previewsworld.com/Home/1/...ticleID=174769

[Ascended]

And all I see is denial from you in order to force something to fit your point of view. If you're arguing that both types of books could have their own handicaps (i.e. some might be deterred by out of continuity while others might be deterred by an in-continuity story they aren't up to date with) then you're essentially making them even and creating a moot point. It's especially complicated by the fact that L&C was doubly handicapped since it fell somewhere in the middle: it was in continuity but so separate that it might as well have been out of it. Its relevance has only come to light recently given "Rebirth" news. Besides, I'm not making "excuses." Those factors were real, and excuses aren't invalid. If a child gets excused from an absence, it's for a legitimate reason like an illness; it's wrong to be so dismissive.

Oh I certainly have my biases. But my point of view on this is that Superman (either version) is not the problem; DC is. My point of view is that this gimmick is going to end up doing as well as previous gimmicks have, and the line is still going to suffer, not through any failing of the character, but because of the "talent" calling the shots. That's my point of view.

As for the bolded, yes, that largely is my point. All of these mini's have certain handicaps applied to them, AA and CotS moreso than L&C in my opinion, but they all have handicaps; therefore, their viability can be gauged by sales because they're all on relatively the same footing. And given that, L&C is still the worst of the three.

There are qualitative aspects to take into consideration of course, there always are in a business (especially when considering whether to drop a product line, or in this case replace a main character). But the evidence we have says L&C is the worst performing Super-mini, and one of (if not the) lowest selling Super-titles. That's a fact. You can make excuses for that, but it is undeniably true.

Also, do you even have kids? An excused absence in school is still an absence and is treated the same way. The only difference is the school doesnt call up the parents to let them know about their missing kid.

More proof that you let your bias and assumptions drive your judgments instead of a thoughtful and comprehensive examination of all factors and data. Oh, and mentioning Truth as justification, dare I say excuse, for the main titles being "driven down" is exactly the kind of impact that several poor arcs during the Post-Crisis had. The potential of these characters isn't limited or defined by their worst moments.

Well, if I let my bias cloud my judgement Im certainly not alone in that.

Okay, you want to look at all the factors we have available to us? Let's consider. We know that L&C is not performing in sales. It does better on digital but not enough to close the print gap. We know that its reviews, according to your data, are higher than the average but not by an exceptionally large margin (I didnt see any data at all for Superman or Batman-Superman) and much of its competition has been in a sales decline that began shortly after a very unpopular Event that started in early 2015. Those are the facts we have (though review collections aren't exactly reliable sources). What here says that Superdad taking over is a good call?

The sales are irrelevant, because whatever deficit exists could be mitigated by several new factors, including the pomp and promotion of a relaunch of this scale and the move to primary Superman status and star in several books that are linked and relevant to the main continuity. My view is that there is a certain core readership that will read Superman regardless of what version it is, and so I don't think it is at all a dumb choice to look at all the variables involved and consider that some kind of shot in the arm was needed, and you can't do that by doing things as usual with New 52 Superman. Attempts to suggest otherwise look like denial and placing New 52 Superman on too much of a pedestal.

Sales are never irrelevant unless you're talking about pure content. As this is not about content alone, sales are the most important aspect. Its a business, not a charity.

Now, you're absolutely right that the franchise needed a shot in the arm. No one is arguing that. What I am arguing is that there was no evidence to support the idea that Superdad will make the franchise perform better. There isnt any proof of that. There's some assumptions, false hope, and thats it. Now, it goes without saying that the books will do well to start thanks to the Rebirth hype, and DC seems intent on pushing Jon, and Superdad will catch some of that effort through proximity. But we have the same creators and editors in control, so why would quality change? And if a shot in the arm is the way to go, how viable is a choice who isnt selling right now?

Obviously new factors will impact this bottom line. But do you really believe a new paint job is going to make a lemon of a car run better? It wont. That's my point. If DC wanted to fix Superman, a overly convoluted story about parallel reality doppelgangers is not the way to accomplish that. Nuperman is no more at fault for his poor 2015 than Superdad was for his poor 2000-2011 (the odd high point excluded). As neither of these characters carry a degree of quality one way or the other on their own (they've no autonomy) the burden of quality lies on the people who drove both versions into the ground to begin with.

And being as convoluted about it as possible is certainly not helping matters. For all that, new mitigating factors can easily be applied to Nuperman, pre-Crisis Kal-L, President Superman, or anything else. Superdad is not the only character capable of new factors that may yield a positive increase in revenue.

Oh come on. Historically hasn't done well? The whole history of the character doesn't indicate that he doesn't do well, and when he hasn't it, like New 52 Superman, has been down to crossovers, events, and just poor writing in general. The New 52 Superman's duration of success can only be measured in 5 years while the Post-Crisis Superman had almost 5 times that. One could probably take a 5-year sample of Post-Crisis Superman's run and compare it to New 52 Superman's and judge him to be the more successful one. If we're talking recently, well then Superman isn't just his character. It's his world, the concept of the book he's in, the timing in terms of events like relaunches, and the creators involved. Given those conditions, it would be taking a chance on either version of Superman, but at least with this one they have some new built in toys to play with and something they can legitimately trumpet as game changing enough to qualify for a relaunch event.

Actually, Nuperman sold quite well until 2015, so out of five years only 20% was bad (insofar as it can be measured). Post-Crisis' downfall began in 2000 (arguably before), hit a short return in 06, and continued to tank thereafter. And the late 80's to early 90's pre-Death/Return saw solid sales but nothing groundbreaking (this is the era, I believe, that was called one of comics' best kept secrets, though I may have my years wrong there). So given that we're looking at a 25 year run with a (virtually) consistent low point of at least 10 years, I will happily take your wager.

Either way, these replies are getting too long and Im not going to burden the thread with more of this. We'll agree to disagree and leave it at that. Agreed?