What if he doesn't come back?

[misslane]

Either way, these replies are getting too long and Im not going to burden the thread with more of this. We'll agree to disagree and leave it at that. Agreed?

I don't agree, sorry. Thanks for the offer, though, and obviously if you're done, I'm okay with that.

As for the bolded, yes, that largely is my point. All of these mini's have certain handicaps applied to them, AA and CotS moreso than L&C in my opinion, but they all have handicaps; therefore, their viability can be gauged by sales because they're all on relatively the same footing. And given that, L&C is still the worst of the three.

And, in my opinion, I L&C has more handicaps. American Alien has star creators, and easily accessible episodic format, and it is completely divorced from any continuity. Coming of the Supermen has a pretty famous creator who is getting to put out a Superman story with a guy in a suit and a story that has no limitations. L&C is tied to Convergence and the Post-Crisis while also being vaguely in the current continuity, yet is irrelevant and un-integrated into that continuity. Jurgens isn't as much of a star either, despite my respect for him.

There are qualitative aspects to take into consideration of course, there always are in a business (especially when considering whether to drop a product line, or in this case replace a main character). But the evidence we have says L&C is the worst performing Super-mini, and one of (if not the) lowest selling Super-titles. That's a fact. You can make excuses for that, but it is undeniably true.

The explanations aren't to argue the numbers as true numbers, but to put them in context. If you need to ignore context in order to use the sales as proof that Rebirth is a stupid idea that won't succeed because it was proven unpopular in L&C, then I don't think you've made your case. All you can say is that it sold poorly. You can't extrapolate from that anything close to a persuasive argument for your disparaging judgments and gloomy prognostications for Rebirth.

Also, do you even have kids? An excused absence in school is still an absence and is treated the same way. The only difference is the school doesnt call up the parents to let them know about their missing kid.

What's with the tone and attitude? "Even"? When did I ever suggest that I had kids? Why is that even relevant? One doesn't have to have children to understand school policies. One need only have been a student oneself or work with students. Moreover, you missed my point. An excused absence is excused because the reason given is accepted as a valid one. If it wasn't, then a student would be in trouble. It means that something genuinely did prevent a student from attending school. In our comic discussion terms, this means that something, like L&C's weird place in continuity, genuinely did have a negative impact on its sales. So you saying that excuses are being provided, as a way to lay full blame for L&C's sales on the character/creator/era, makes little sense not only because you don't know for a fact that other factors didn't have a negative impact, but also because to say something is an excuse is to say that it can be a legitimate explanation for a particular turn of events.

Those are the facts we have (though review collections aren't exactly reliable sources). What here says that Superdad taking over is a good call?

L&C's reviews were at 8.6 while most others were either a point or two points below. Again for reference, L&C was 8.6, SM/WW was 6.6, Superman is 6.5, Action Comics is 7.6, Batman/Superman is at 7.2, Coming of the Supermen is at 6.9, and American Alien has received an 8.4 average. Reviews can be found here.

Looking at critical acclaim alone, I'd say that L&C and American Alien are doing the best, and honestly I would have been fine if Rebirth had been a reboot of Superman from Landis' origin. The rest of the New 52 looks like it is suffering. A lot of the creators who provided the higher scores that boosts the average of some of these titles are long gone: Soule, Pak, Morrison. L&C's sales aren't relevant to what a full-fledged, fully integrated, Superman can bring to the highly promoted relaunch of flagship titles. When I look at the data both in sales and reviews, I see a line that could do fine either way. However, to justify a relaunch a company needs to do something bold and new, and New 52 Superman doesn't have as much to offer in terms of shaking things up and infusing new elements.

New 52 Superman needed a break. His 5 years were filled with stunts that eroded and deconstructed him until there was a lot of painstaking rebuilding that had to be done. He was attached to Wonder Woman whose own treatment by the Finches took its toll. To align with the movies and to lure back better creators like Rucka, the Superman and Wonder Woman relationship had to go. Supergirl was easy enough to rehabilitate with the show as a blueprint, but Superboy has been a problem for awhile. Lois Lane has also caused the Superman offices difficulty, since they seem to maintain the attitude that if Lois isn't Superman's girlfriend, she can't have a good role in his stories. Bringing in the Post-Crisis family fixes a lot of those problems, possibly on a temporary basis, by giving them time to see if this new set up will work and/or figure out where to go next with New 52 Superman whose potential reintroduction may be made easier if the new crew helps to rebuild his world.

Sales are never irrelevant unless you're talking about pure content. As this is not about content alone, sales are the most important aspect. Its a business, not a charity.

They are if they aren't comparable. What L&C is isn't what Rebirth is going to be, so the potential in the Rebirth concept cannot be accurately gauged on L&C sales alone.

Now, you're absolutely right that the franchise needed a shot in the arm. No one is arguing that. What I am arguing is that there was no evidence to support the idea that Superdad will make the franchise perform better. [...] And if a shot in the arm is the way to go, how viable is a choice who isnt selling right now?

I don't believe I've argued that Superdad will make it perform better other than suggesting that a relaunch in general can be a pretty strong impetus for at least some initial improvement. My point has only been that we don't know. Period. We don't know if it will make it better or that keeping New 52 Superman would have been better in the long run. I initially joined this conversation because it was being argued that low sales for L&C meant that it was foolish for DC to use its Superman and family as the key to its Superman Rebirth relaunch. I don't think the L&C sales mean it's foolish at all. I think those sales are irrelevant, given all the different variables at play with that book and the Rebirth books. What will be selling in Rebirth is not what L&C is selling. What it does offer, though, is something new and something new that is constructive rather than destructive (rather deconstructive) which is what much of New 52 Superman's tenure has been.

Obviously new factors will impact this bottom line. But do you really believe a new paint job is going to make a lemon of a car run better?

I'm not saying I'm optimistic or sure that Superdad will usher in sales and buzz that would qualify as equal or superior success to what the New 52 did offer or could have offered. I'm saying I don't know, and I don't think L&C sales data or reviews offer sufficient tea leaves that should add or detract to anyone's outlook.

And being as convoluted about it as possible is certainly not helping matters. For all that, new mitigating factors can easily be applied to Nuperman, pre-Crisis Kal-L, President Superman, or anything else. Superdad is not the only character capable of new factors that may yield a positive increase in revenue.

Sure, but Superdad resembles the cinematic universe the most, he's more recent, he has a creator in Jurgens who is still with the company and knows the characters as well as the new continuity (New 52), and he comes with a much needed Superboy and a Lois Lane who is more traditional yet still a modern woman as opposed to the ones you might find in the Silver and Bronze Age. I don't think the reason they went with this Superman to be that mysterious or incredible.

Actually, Nuperman sold quite well until 2015, so out of five years only 20% was bad (insofar as it can be measured). Post-Crisis' downfall began in 2000 (arguably before), hit a short return in 06, and continued to tank thereafter. And the late 80's to early 90's pre-Death/Return saw solid sales but nothing groundbreaking (this is the era, I believe, that was called one of comics' best kept secrets, though I may have my years wrong there). So given that we're looking at a 25 year run with a (virtually) consistent low point of at least 10 years, I will happily take your wager.

Well, if you'd like to do the math Comichron is at your service. Mind, it only has data starting in 1995.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Now they've added a Mary Sue character for children....

Here's the funny thing: I agree that he is a bit of a Gary Stu (thanks, misslane!) character who is a child, but I have no idea if he' a character for children. Are kids really eager to see a 10-year-old superhero set in the more adult DCU? Kid superheroes usually exist in settings that were designed for them, which have a different tone, different kinds of supporting casts and family dynamics, etc.

....in a 10 year old superhero son of the couple who is more powerful than his father, and who no responsible parent, least of all Superman, protector of children, would allow to risk his life at that age, before he is mature enough to make life and death decisions. That, unless people have gone crazy, should make SuperDad less popular than ever, perhaps disregarding an initial sales spike.

Damian is a very popular character, and Batman letting his 10-year-old son run around in a Robin suit (that he got killed in once) does not seem to have affected Batman's popularity one iota. (My opinion on the subject is irrelevant.) And Damian doesn't even have any superpowers. Some people argue, well, that's different, Batman's supposed to be crazy - but I don't think most readers think about it that way; they just have a very wide suspension of disbelief for these things. (Which they are entitled to, and I don't begrudge them their enjoyment.) DC has a precedent here - and will be emphasizing it, in the SuperSons comic - and I'm not sure this is going to be a big issue in and of itself.

I mean, really, can they even count on the people who lived this version of Superman to come back to stay after five years out of the game for some of them, and to see a Superman who was willing to sit for 10 years and watch bad things happen without helping in the world? Will they tolerate the "super" kid and Superdad condoning him risking his life regularly at age 10 (Remember, this kid wasn't in those old comics)? Will those fans like this PF-Superman in the new52 universe? I think when they said they wanted PF-Superman back, they probably meant the universe, too, not as an outsider in a different dead Superman's universe.

Again, I don't think a lot of readers are focused on the details. For example, the fact that SuperDad kept such a low profile during perilous times, while it is the sort of thing that I'm very aware of (and would prefer more thought-out justification for), is something that many readers either ignore (a detail from the character's backstory that they don't see as relevant to his current adventures), or - especially if they like the character and/or the new situation - quickly make excuses for. (Some of which are more clever and thought out than we're getting from the writers.) Story Over Continuity, y'know?

I also don't really get the feel that DC is primarily pitching "the pre-FP Superman you were so sad to lose at the beginning of The New 52 is back!" as it is "here's the current Superman, he's older and more experienced, a lot more like the one we had before The New 52, and he's married and has a kid and we're going to spin some great stories out of that." And TPTB don't care how they got him to the point. Will readers? From the number of people I see saying "I just want good stories, I don't care much about backstory or continuity," I'm not sure how many will.

They just say, oh, you'll never see him further development, he's gone for a guy who's already had 5x that time to develop, that other guys needs more.

I don't think they're saying "this other guy needs more development." I think they're saying "we think we can write, and sell, better stories with this guy, we want to do it now, so we're just cutting our losses on the previous guy."

But even if the sales are amazing, I don't like this direction and I still say the hell with it.

And you are entirely entitled.

By the way, I have no idea whether this will work well for them or not. Certainly it's not the approach that I would have taken, but I'm just one reader. And, although you and I disagree on a number of things, I think we may be similar as readers in the kinds of details that we consider important. In some cases, at least.

[SuperCrab]

How do you figure that?

Pre-Flashpoint sales for June 2011:

Action Comics 902---------41,960
Superman 712---------37,362

Pre-Flashpoint sales for July 2011:

Action Comics 903---------40,205
Superman 713---------36,646

Pre-Flashpoint sales for August 2011:

Action Comics 904*---------39,323
Superman 714*---------35,919

*Final Issue


New 52 Sales for January 2016:

Superman 48---------37,690
Action Comics 48---------31,958

New 52 Sales for February 2016:

Superman 49---------36,318
Action Comics 49---------31,496

New 52 Sales for March 2016:

Superman* 50---------91,396
Action Comics 50*---------40,025

*50th Issue



Are you sure about that?

Hard to argue with that.

Although Superman #50 sure sold well, which is a positive trend for new52 Superman. The waning months of the Truth arc, I would guess, might constitute his low point sales wise, though. Once they gave him his powers and cape back, sales went through the roof.

[SuperCrab]

Here's the funny thing: I agree that he is a Mary Sue character who is a child, but I have no idea if he' a character for children. Are kids really eager to see a 10-year-old superhero set in the more adult DCU? Kid superheroes usually exist in settings that were designed for them, which have a different tone, different kinds of supporting casts and family dynamics, etc.

So, if this 10 year old superhero character isn't being written for children, who are they trying to appeal to with this? Are there a ton of adults who want to read about a 10 year old saving the world every month? And, if there are a ton of adults who want to read about that, *why*? I'm not counting people who are just reading the book for Superman, obviously. I just mean that clearly DC Comics thinks that they are attracting additional people with the addition of this character, and I'm curious as to who the people are demographically who they think wouldn't buy the books without him and would buy the books with him.

[victorsage]

I think we need to go down this road and consider this as a possibility. What if the New 52 Superman doesn't come back? Would you keep reading?

Of course. I never liked Nuperman to being with.

[Tayswift]

Here's the funny thing: I agree that he is a bit of a Gary Stu (thanks, misslane!) character who is a child, but I have no idea if he' a character for children. Are kids really eager to see a 10-year-old superhero set in the more adult DCU? Kid superheroes usually exist in settings that were designed for them, which have a different tone, different kinds of supporting casts and family dynamics, etc.

he isn't a mary sue or gary stu, not more than superman or batman. IDK ms marvel has been making a lot of success on marvl, even with a adult setting, so it won't be a obstacle for Jon or even Damian. I think last damian series was very kid friendly, different from batman and robin.

Damian is a very popular character, and Batman letting his 10-year-old son run around in a Robin suit (that he got killed in once) does not seem to have affected Batman's popularity one iota. (My opinion on the subject is irrelevant.) And Damian doesn't even have any superpowers. Some people argue, well, that's different, Batman's supposed to be crazy - but I don't think most readers think about it that way; they just have a very wide suspension of disbelief for these things. (Which they are entitled to, and I don't begrudge them their enjoyment.) DC has a precedent here - and will be emphasizing it, in the SuperSons comic - and I'm not sure this is going to be a big issue in and of itself.

well, teen titans and YJ success enough said. people don't care about teenages/kids being superheroes

Hard to argue with that.

Although Superman #50 sure sold well, which is a positive trend for new52 Superman. The waning months of the Truth arc, I would guess, might constitute his low point sales wise, though. Once they gave him his powers and cape back, sales went through the roof.

it had lot of variants because of bat v sup, it has nothing to do with new 52 superman

[misslane]

Hard to argue with that.

Although Superman #50 sure sold well, which is a positive trend for new52 Superman. The waning months of the Truth arc, I would guess, might constitute his low point sales wise, though. Once they gave him his powers and cape back, sales went through the roof.

Pre-Flashpoint Superman ended with "Grounded" (i.e. a bungled story idea on the same level as "Truth"), and the "Convergence" character is just as much a hero without his iconic suit, cape, and supporting cast. Why can't the same logic that says New 52 Superman is just one creative decision away from a monster sales spike be applied to a Superman who went from a "Truth"-type arc and a period of capelessness? It just seems like a bit of a double standard.

[SuperCrab]

Pre-Flashpoint Superman ended with "Grounded" (i.e. a bungled story idea on the same level as "Truth"),

Grounded was written by the creator, executive producer, and primary screenwriter of one of the greatest science fiction television shows of all time. Sales might have been even *lower* if not for him.

Anyway, I like that author, I like Grounded, and popularity is not substitute for quality or vice-versa.

But, um. Look, if you're going to bring back the pre-Flashpoint Superman, can you at least have JMS write an ongoing book?

Why can't the same logic that says New 52 Superman is just one creative decision away from a monster sales spike be applied to a Superman who went from a "Truth"-type arc and a period of capelessness? It just seems like a bit of a double standard.

Oh, look, they could take Superboy from 1965, and turn him into the Superman of 2016 at an appropriate age for Superman, and it's not impossible with the right writers and illustrators hitting on the right story and imagery, they could sell big. I don't know.

Look, I just want them to keep my Superman, new52 Superman, alive and kicking and in the Superman books in his own freaking universe, okay? I also don't want to read about the adventures of a 10-year old superhero. Do you have a problem with any of that?

These arguments are getting stupid.

[victorsage]

Look, I just want them to keep my Superman, new52 Superman, alive and kicking and in the Superman books in his own freaking universe, okay? I also don't want to read about the adventures of a 10-year old superhero. Do you have a problem with any of that?

And I'm personally glad to see my Superman back and the New 52 Superman gone for now. We all have our preferences.

[Doctor Bifrost]

he isn't a mary sue or gary stu, not more than superman or batman.

Well, I said "a bit of." But it seems to me that a 10-year-old, just getting his powers, with no training or experience, who is already being hyped as taking on foes that his father (The Greatest Hero In The World) can't defeat - if I've been reading the Coming Attractions correctly - might overlap somewhat with Gary Stu territory.

Certainly a lot more so than Superman or Batman.

[misslane]

Well, I said "a bit of." But it seems to me that a 10-year-old, just getting his powers, with no training or experience, who is already being hyped as taking on foes that his father (The Greatest Hero In The World) can't defeat - if I've been reading the Coming Attractions correctly - might overlap somewhat with Gary Stu territory.

Certainly a lot more so than Superman or Batman.

Did the Coming Attractions tell you if Jon defeats these undefeated foes without help or making loads of mistakes? Because that would be what undercuts the Gary Stu critique. Plus, it would be pretty strange for the Rebirth press to be spoiling major plot points (i.e. Jon/Superboy masterfully defeats his father's foes) months before anyone even reads a word of the books themselves.

[SuperCrab]

And I'm personally glad to see my Superman back and the New 52 Superman gone for now. We all have our preferences.

I can understand that, but in a company that publishes 36 different books, sone twice a month, isn't there room for new52 Superman somewhere? At least give us a 1 issue a month ongoing, throw us a bone.

As a Superdad fan, wouldn't you rather he be featured in comics in his own universe with his own friends and enemies versus veing shoved into another Superman's spot in a universe not his own?

To me, the obvious answer here was to give Superdad a book in his own universe if they wanted him to headline something in Metropolis, and have new52 Superman headline a book in his own universe. One could be the star of Avtion Comics, the other could be the start of the Superman titled book. They wouldn't even have had yo create an extra monthly or twice monthly, just divide the ones you have between the two characters.

[manofsteel1979]

I love how having Jon around with powers means automatically he's taking over the Superman titles as the star and will outclass his father and Nuperman. Oh and apparently for sure the stories are going to all be aimed at elementary school kids. All this based on solicits that say nothing of the sort for comics we haven't read one page of yet.

No one should read comics they arent interested in, but there's no reason to make up reasons not to read books you don't want to read and then write long post after long post that keep restating such points. Just don't buy the books if you don't want to read them.

[adrikito]

Pre-Flashpoint Superman ended with "Grounded" (i.e. a bungled story idea on the same level as "Truth"), and the "Convergence" character is just as much a hero without his iconic suit, cape, and supporting cast. Why can't the same logic that says New 52 Superman is just one creative decision away from a monster sales spike be applied to a Superman who went from a "Truth"-type arc and a period of capelessness? It just seems like a bit of a double standard.

More Bad news..

failure looks the same on both .. and yet, they make the old version back to this universe.. now what? I wait until the end of rebirth? or superdad failure in the superman comics?

[adrikito]

Oh, look, they could take Superboy from 1965, and turn him into the Superman of 2016 at an appropriate age for Superman, and it's not impossible with the right writers and illustrators hitting on the right story and imagery, they could sell big. I don't know.

Look, I just want them to keep my Superman, new52 Superman, alive and kicking and in the Superman books in his own freaking universe, okay? I also don't want to read about the adventures of a 10-year old superhero. Do you have a problem with any of that?

old fans have already taken many disappointments SUPERCRAB..

It's better to be prepared for the worst.. or 2 years without superman(time of rebirth) or worse.. I report the years they were out Barry Allen and Wally West .. According as the old Superman fans are released that could be repeated. Do not trust in the Eradicator.. at the end he serve to cure the weakening of superdad.. he appears too soon.

Like you I am angry(my interest in pre-flashpoint change to 0), but better to think the worst.

in "truth" you wise that he would return some day .. DC put another man like him(They make them stand his son)... as if to say that nothing happened, then they are able to be friend of everyone to lie less noticeable..

That we should learn from the old fans (the only thing) not to have too much confidence in them the best example is DCYOU.