I don't agree, sorry. Thanks for the offer, though, and obviously if you're done, I'm okay with that.
And, in my opinion, I L&C has more handicaps. American Alien has star creators, and easily accessible episodic format, and it is completely divorced from any continuity. Coming of the Supermen has a pretty famous creator who is getting to put out a Superman story with a guy in a suit and a story that has no limitations. L&C is tied to Convergence and the Post-Crisis while also being vaguely in the current continuity, yet is irrelevant and un-integrated into that continuity. Jurgens isn't as much of a star either, despite my respect for him.As for the bolded, yes, that largely is my point. All of these mini's have certain handicaps applied to them, AA and CotS moreso than L&C in my opinion, but they all have handicaps; therefore, their viability can be gauged by sales because they're all on relatively the same footing. And given that, L&C is still the worst of the three.
The explanations aren't to argue the numbers as true numbers, but to put them in context. If you need to ignore context in order to use the sales as proof that Rebirth is a stupid idea that won't succeed because it was proven unpopular in L&C, then I don't think you've made your case. All you can say is that it sold poorly. You can't extrapolate from that anything close to a persuasive argument for your disparaging judgments and gloomy prognostications for Rebirth.There are qualitative aspects to take into consideration of course, there always are in a business (especially when considering whether to drop a product line, or in this case replace a main character). But the evidence we have says L&C is the worst performing Super-mini, and one of (if not the) lowest selling Super-titles. That's a fact. You can make excuses for that, but it is undeniably true.
What's with the tone and attitude? "Even"? When did I ever suggest that I had kids? Why is that even relevant? One doesn't have to have children to understand school policies. One need only have been a student oneself or work with students. Moreover, you missed my point. An excused absence is excused because the reason given is accepted as a valid one. If it wasn't, then a student would be in trouble. It means that something genuinely did prevent a student from attending school. In our comic discussion terms, this means that something, like L&C's weird place in continuity, genuinely did have a negative impact on its sales. So you saying that excuses are being provided, as a way to lay full blame for L&C's sales on the character/creator/era, makes little sense not only because you don't know for a fact that other factors didn't have a negative impact, but also because to say something is an excuse is to say that it can be a legitimate explanation for a particular turn of events.Also, do you even have kids? An excused absence in school is still an absence and is treated the same way. The only difference is the school doesnt call up the parents to let them know about their missing kid.
L&C's reviews were at 8.6 while most others were either a point or two points below. Again for reference, L&C was 8.6, SM/WW was 6.6, Superman is 6.5, Action Comics is 7.6, Batman/Superman is at 7.2, Coming of the Supermen is at 6.9, and American Alien has received an 8.4 average. Reviews can be found here.Those are the facts we have (though review collections aren't exactly reliable sources). What here says that Superdad taking over is a good call?
Looking at critical acclaim alone, I'd say that L&C and American Alien are doing the best, and honestly I would have been fine if Rebirth had been a reboot of Superman from Landis' origin. The rest of the New 52 looks like it is suffering. A lot of the creators who provided the higher scores that boosts the average of some of these titles are long gone: Soule, Pak, Morrison. L&C's sales aren't relevant to what a full-fledged, fully integrated, Superman can bring to the highly promoted relaunch of flagship titles. When I look at the data both in sales and reviews, I see a line that could do fine either way. However, to justify a relaunch a company needs to do something bold and new, and New 52 Superman doesn't have as much to offer in terms of shaking things up and infusing new elements.
New 52 Superman needed a break. His 5 years were filled with stunts that eroded and deconstructed him until there was a lot of painstaking rebuilding that had to be done. He was attached to Wonder Woman whose own treatment by the Finches took its toll. To align with the movies and to lure back better creators like Rucka, the Superman and Wonder Woman relationship had to go. Supergirl was easy enough to rehabilitate with the show as a blueprint, but Superboy has been a problem for awhile. Lois Lane has also caused the Superman offices difficulty, since they seem to maintain the attitude that if Lois isn't Superman's girlfriend, she can't have a good role in his stories. Bringing in the Post-Crisis family fixes a lot of those problems, possibly on a temporary basis, by giving them time to see if this new set up will work and/or figure out where to go next with New 52 Superman whose potential reintroduction may be made easier if the new crew helps to rebuild his world.
They are if they aren't comparable. What L&C is isn't what Rebirth is going to be, so the potential in the Rebirth concept cannot be accurately gauged on L&C sales alone.Sales are never irrelevant unless you're talking about pure content. As this is not about content alone, sales are the most important aspect. Its a business, not a charity.
I don't believe I've argued that Superdad will make it perform better other than suggesting that a relaunch in general can be a pretty strong impetus for at least some initial improvement. My point has only been that we don't know. Period. We don't know if it will make it better or that keeping New 52 Superman would have been better in the long run. I initially joined this conversation because it was being argued that low sales for L&C meant that it was foolish for DC to use its Superman and family as the key to its Superman Rebirth relaunch. I don't think the L&C sales mean it's foolish at all. I think those sales are irrelevant, given all the different variables at play with that book and the Rebirth books. What will be selling in Rebirth is not what L&C is selling. What it does offer, though, is something new and something new that is constructive rather than destructive (rather deconstructive) which is what much of New 52 Superman's tenure has been.Now, you're absolutely right that the franchise needed a shot in the arm. No one is arguing that. What I am arguing is that there was no evidence to support the idea that Superdad will make the franchise perform better. [...] And if a shot in the arm is the way to go, how viable is a choice who isnt selling right now?
I'm not saying I'm optimistic or sure that Superdad will usher in sales and buzz that would qualify as equal or superior success to what the New 52 did offer or could have offered. I'm saying I don't know, and I don't think L&C sales data or reviews offer sufficient tea leaves that should add or detract to anyone's outlook.Obviously new factors will impact this bottom line. But do you really believe a new paint job is going to make a lemon of a car run better?
Sure, but Superdad resembles the cinematic universe the most, he's more recent, he has a creator in Jurgens who is still with the company and knows the characters as well as the new continuity (New 52), and he comes with a much needed Superboy and a Lois Lane who is more traditional yet still a modern woman as opposed to the ones you might find in the Silver and Bronze Age. I don't think the reason they went with this Superman to be that mysterious or incredible.And being as convoluted about it as possible is certainly not helping matters. For all that, new mitigating factors can easily be applied to Nuperman, pre-Crisis Kal-L, President Superman, or anything else. Superdad is not the only character capable of new factors that may yield a positive increase in revenue.
Well, if you'd like to do the math Comichron is at your service. Mind, it only has data starting in 1995.Actually, Nuperman sold quite well until 2015, so out of five years only 20% was bad (insofar as it can be measured). Post-Crisis' downfall began in 2000 (arguably before), hit a short return in 06, and continued to tank thereafter. And the late 80's to early 90's pre-Death/Return saw solid sales but nothing groundbreaking (this is the era, I believe, that was called one of comics' best kept secrets, though I may have my years wrong there). So given that we're looking at a 25 year run with a (virtually) consistent low point of at least 10 years, I will happily take your wager.