Ash's Charizard vs Red's Charizard

[Guy1]

I may be missing something but I don't see anything noteworthy about a fire-aspected creature no-selling lava.

*Points to One Piece.*

[The Dog]

Good thing I threw in that disclaimer, else I'd have looked like a total dingus. But yeah, I had figured Ash's would have more feats since his show will last in perpetuity and he never ages, but I did remember Red's doing well against Mewtwo and thought that'd be points in its favor.

Also, Infernape's my jam. I got a late start and Platinum was the first game I actually got a copy of.

I seem to remember Red's Charizard only really did well and defeated Mewtwo after Mega Evolution into Mega Charizard X.

[Primetime Harder]

I seem to remember Red's Charizard only really did well and defeated Mewtwo after Mega Evolution into Mega Charizard X.

True, but there aren't any restrictions preventing that from happening in this fight, either. Which is a big part of what I think tips things in Red's favor.

[Cody]

Afair it's mostly a fanboy thing.

Not really. Heck; Ash's Charizard is only so much more powerful because someone else is actively training it. Then there is the overall power of his Pokemon. He has some powerful ones, sure. But that is really only because of them naturally being far more powerful than their kind normally are(Pikachu when plot isn't either taking his powers away or smashing his head in until he loses fights he has no business losing), or by someone else training them(Charizard). Reds pokemon, even from Oirgins, are all trained by him. And are overall very powerful due to his training them.

The hype mostly comes from years of all of his appearances and just all being added to his latest incarnation(that is nearly identical to the redesigned game Red). When people say that Red is a vastly superior trainer than Ash, it usually means they are referring to ALL versions of Red. Red from the Pokemon Manga for example? Vastly superior trainer than Ash. Big time. And he has the feats and powerful Pokemon to back it up. Then of course there is the Red the player fights in some of the Pokemon games. Each of his pokemon are very powerful. And when he was first fought back in Gold, Silver and Crystal? He reached outright mythic status, as one of the toughest boss fights in gaming of that time. From a story standpoint; that means he trained his pokemon very well.

Ash just doesn't have that many Pokemon who are strong just because he trained them. Some are, do not get me wrong. But for the most part they are either very unique, or trained by others. While with Red; it was all him.

[wjowski]

Yeah, Red's reputation basically comes from going on to become the Pokemon games' equivalent of Akuma.

[Hiromi]

There's also the extended time period where Charizard flat out wouldn't listen to Ash during which every trainer he faced made a point on calling him out for Charizard being poorly trained.

[Primetime Harder]

There's also the extended time period where Charizard flat out wouldn't listen to Ash during which every trainer he faced made a point on calling him out for Charizard being poorly trained.

And Silver Surfer got clocked by some random joe on the street, and Darkseid was thwarted by stairs like a common dalek, and Firelord lost to Spider-Man.

That was Ash's Charizard at its lowest, and it has since massively improved, is my point. I'm still pulling for Red's, but that really shouldn't be an issue.

[Hiromi]

Charmander evolved in episode 44, where it immediately began displaying the disloyalty thing and didn't show loyalty again until episode 105, a persistent state through 61 episodes and at least one movie does not constitute a FLvsSM situation, and it's a knock against Ash's skill as a trainer, not Charizard itself, especially since he was routinely taken to task for it by other high level trainer peers and even Mewtwo.

[Jcogginsa]

So will Red and Ash be commanding their mon for this battle? Cause that's a significant factor

Not really. Heck; Ash's Charizard is only so much more powerful because someone else is actively training it. Then there is the overall power of his Pokemon. He has some powerful ones, sure. But that is really only because of them naturally being far more powerful than their kind normally are(Pikachu when plot isn't either taking his powers away or smashing his head in until he loses fights he has no business losing), or by someone else training them(Charizard). Reds pokemon, even from Oirgins, are all trained by him. And are overall very powerful due to his training them.

The hype mostly comes from years of all of his appearances and just all being added to his latest incarnation(that is nearly identical to the redesigned game Red). When people say that Red is a vastly superior trainer than Ash, it usually means they are referring to ALL versions of Red. Red from the Pokemon Manga for example? Vastly superior trainer than Ash. Big time. And he has the feats and powerful Pokemon to back it up. Then of course there is the Red the player fights in some of the Pokemon games. Each of his pokemon are very powerful. And when he was first fought back in Gold, Silver and Crystal? He reached outright mythic status, as one of the toughest boss fights in gaming of that time. From a story standpoint; that means he trained his pokemon very well.

Ash just doesn't have that many Pokemon who are strong just because he trained them. Some are, do not get me wrong. But for the most part they are either very unique, or trained by others. While with Red; it was all him.

Ash has trained dozens of pokemon to the level of regional competition, basically making them among the strongest in whatever country he happens to be in. Ash is a very good trainer. What holds him back is that the writers reset him to beginner level every region. But even then he's still pretty good come the tournement. The vast majroity of his Pokemon are as strong as they are because of his training.

And in terms of Overall acomplishments, Ash is far more impressive. He has saved the world several times, Save the entire universe a lesser number of times, Placed extremely well in several competitions, beaten several legendaries, invented several moves, traveled the world, is potentially trilingual, has time traveled several times, and by real world standards is super human

There's also the extended time period where Charizard flat out wouldn't listen to Ash during which every trainer he faced made a point on calling him out for Charizard being poorly trained.

And that's five regions ago now. Not really relevent

[Primetime Harder]

And in terms of Overall accomplishments, Ash is far more impressive. He has saved the world several times, Save the entire universe a lesser number of times, Placed extremely well in several competitions, beaten several legendaries, invented several moves, traveled the world, is potentially trilingual, has time traveled several times, and by real world standards is super human

And yet, for all of that, the only time he's ever actually beaten the Elite Four was in a region that doesn't even exist in the games.

Also, of course he's had more accomplishments; his series has lasted almost 20 years, and Pokemon Origins was only 4 episodes.

[Cody]

[QUOTE=Jcogginsa;2024727
And in terms of Overall acomplishments, Ash is far more impressive.[/quote]

Hardly. As the player, manga, and anime; Red has defeated and captured several legendaries on his own, and permanently defeated Team Rocket. Ash usually has a lot of back up from allies. Red does not. And out of all of Ashs' total caught Pokemon; only a small minority is really all that powerful. And they are hardly the absolute most powerful pokemon in the countries. While Red has caught over a 150 different types.

Again; Ash has a lot of help even in training his mon on his own. He trains alongside his comrades; Red is mostly on his own.

There is no reason why Red could not have accomplished the same as Ash.

[master of read]

if ash can teach charizard the counter-shield, that might give him the win.

[Jcogginsa]

And yet, for all of that, the only time he's ever actually beaten the Elite Four was in a region that doesn't even exist in the games.

Also, of course he's had more accomplishments; his series has lasted almost 20 years, and Pokemon Origins was only 4 episodes.

So what? Beating the Elite Four in one continuity doesn't equate to beating them in another. In origins, do the elite four have any feats besides Losing to Red?

Hardly. As the player, manga, and anime; Red has defeated and captured several legendaries on his own, and permanently defeated Team Rocket. Ash usually has a lot of back up from allies. Red does not. And out of all of Ashs' total caught Pokemon; only a small minority is really all that powerful. And they are hardly the absolute most powerful pokemon in the countries. While Red has caught over a 150 different types.

Again; Ash has a lot of help even in training his mon on his own. He trains alongside his comrades; Red is mostly on his own.

There is no reason why Red could not have accomplished the same as Ash.

The majority of Ash's pokemon are strong enough to compete in the pokemon league. That puts them very high up on the totem pole. Ash does have a select group that is a step above the rest, but that doesn't make the rest of his pokemon weak, it makes his top tiers ridiculous. Like the time his Charizard curbstomped a Dragonite.

Meanwhile, Red has caught 150 pokemon, but the vast majority seem to be captures that he never actually Trains. Ash trains the vast majority of his pokemon himself, and gets them up into the top percentile by the time of the league nearly without fail. The pokemon he has that are naturally super strong powerhouses is comparatively much fewer. And while yes, Ash does occasionally get help, tha just shows that he's learning from others. Incorporating new information into his training style, self-improving as he travels through the region.

[Anarchist]

Maybe Origins alone wasn't quite enough, should have made this composite.

[Jcogginsa]

Maybe Origins alone wasn't quite enough, should have made this composite.

Origins is the only continuity where Red is closely associated with Charizard. In the Manga Charizard belongs to the rival though Red does use it once, and in the games he gets all three so it's not really any more important than the other two