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  1. #1
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Default Is it true that Marvel doesn't have "hero-exclusive" villains?

    In Marvel, it really isn't all that uncommon to see heroes fighting villains who debuted elsewhere and are more associated with others. Really, it seems less of a hard rule that this villain must antagonize this hero, and more of a suggestion.

    Examples:

    • Klaw is a Black Panther villain, but has fought the Fantastic Four and Daredevil.
    • Boomerang debuted as a Hulk villain but quickly moved to Spider-Man due to how bad of a fit he was for the character.
    • One of Spider-Man's famous '80s stories had him fighting the Juggernaut, normally an X-Men villain.
    • Sabretooth is the archenemy of Wolverine, but originated from Iron Fist.
    • Doctor Doom is commonly thought a Fantastic Four villain, but has really menaced every big hero including the Avengers, Iron Man, the X-Men, Thor, Hulk, Spider-Man, Doctor Strange and Black Panther, among others.
    • Kingpin was a minor Spider-Man villain but is now Daredevil's archenemy. DD has also fought Electro and Mysterio in the past.
    • Sandman debuted in Spider-Man but spent a large amount of time fighting the Fantastic Four.
    • Magneto has fought the Avengers, Spider-Man and Thor even though he's the X-Men's most famous nemesis.
    • M.O.D.O.K. was created to be an enemy of Captain America, but also menaced Iron Man, Carol Danvers and Hulk as well as the Avengers.
    • Mystique was originally Ms. Marvel / Carol Danvers' nemesis, but migrated to the X-books.
    • Recently, Kamala Khan inherited Shocker from Spider-Man.
    • Ultron was a longtime exclusive villain of the Avengers, but was the main villain of Annihilation: Conquest (focused on cosmic heroes), and Age of Ultron where he fought everyone.
    • Norman Osborn / The Green Goblin was an exclusive villain to Spider-Man for a long time, but that changed in the '00s when he became a general MU big bad and menaced just about everyone both directly and indirectly.


    And these are just some examples off the top of my head.

    Overall, it seems Marvel is much more flexible with the idea of heroes fighting other people's villains than DC. In DC, I honestly have a hard time naming such instances of heroes and villains of different origins fighting each other outside of big crossovers. The best I can think of is Deathstroke originating in Teen Titans, and menacing them, the various Titans teams, Batman, Nightwing independently, and Green Arrow. Few other characters seem as versatile in DC.

    Apparently, it's also part of the creative process:

    https://brevoortformspring.tumblr.co...-suggest-would

    Not creative teams so much as editorial offices. So, for example, I edit CAPTAIN AMERICA. So if you want Cap to appear in your title, your editor needs to coordinate that appearance with me, and you need to deal with whatever I tell them is the status quo of Cap right now–so Steve Rogers is old and Sam Wilson is Captain America. And we negotiate in order to get the best stories for everyone and to allow everybody to do what they want to do within reason.

    The same is true if what you’re after is a key Cap villain–if you want the Red Skull or Baron Zemo or Crossbones or whomever, I had better know about it. For a lesser Cap villain, say somebody like Everyman from back in the 80s, most likely all you need to express is a desire to use them and give a sense as to what you’re going to do with them, and that will be fine.

    It’s also possible that a character like that could become ceded for a time or even permanently to another title, if you did such a quintessential Everyman story in your book such that people now associate him more with your title than with Cap. Even with the big villains–while Rick was writing both titles, the Red Skull became more of an UNCANNY AVENGERS villain than a CAP villain, though that will likely revert back at some point (and Cap was a part of the UNCANNY AVENGERS series as well.)
    What do you think of this? Discuss.

  2. #2
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    In Marvel, it really isn't all that uncommon to see heroes fighting villains who debuted elsewhere and are more associated with others. Really, it seems less of a hard rule that this villain must antagonize this hero, and more of a suggestion.

    Examples:

    • Klaw is a Black Panther villain, but has fought the Fantastic Four and Daredevil.
    • Boomerang debuted as a Hulk villain but quickly moved to Spider-Man due to how bad of a fit he was for the character.
    • One of Spider-Man's famous '80s stories had him fighting the Juggernaut, normally an X-Men villain.
    • Sabretooth is the archenemy of Wolverine, but originated from Iron Fist.
    • Doctor Doom is commonly thought a Fantastic Four villain, but has really menaced every big hero including the Avengers, Iron Man, the X-Men, Thor, Hulk, Spider-Man, Doctor Strange and Black Panther, among others.
    • Kingpin was a minor Spider-Man villain but is now Daredevil's archenemy. DD has also fought Electro and Mysterio in the past.
    • Sandman debuted in Spider-Man but spent a large amount of time fighting the Fantastic Four.
    • Magneto has fought the Avengers, Spider-Man and Thor even though he's the X-Men's most famous nemesis.
    • M.O.D.O.K. was created to be an enemy of Captain America, but also menaced Iron Man, Carol Danvers and Hulk as well as the Avengers.
    • Mystique was originally Ms. Marvel / Carol Danvers' nemesis, but migrated to the X-books.
    • Recently, Kamala Khan inherited Shocker from Spider-Man.
    • Ultron was a longtime exclusive villain of the Avengers, but was the main villain of Annihilation: Conquest (focused on cosmic heroes), and Age of Ultron where he fought everyone.
    • Norman Osborn / The Green Goblin was an exclusive villain to Spider-Man for a long time, but that changed in the '00s when he became a general MU big bad and menaced just about everyone both directly and indirectly.


    And these are just some examples off the top of my head.

    Overall, it seems Marvel is much more flexible with the idea of heroes fighting other people's villains than DC. In DC, I honestly have a hard time naming such instances of heroes and villains of different origins fighting each other outside of big crossovers. The best I can think of is Deathstroke originating in Teen Titans, and menacing them, the various Titans teams, Batman, Nightwing independently, and Green Arrow. Few other characters seem as versatile in DC.

    Apparently, it's also part of the creative process:

    https://brevoortformspring.tumblr.co...-suggest-would



    What do you think of this? Discuss.
    Since 90% of the heroes and villains operate in the exact same city, it just makes sense that they will bump into different people every once in awhile.

    It's nice to know there's some coordination behind the scenes when it happens.

  3. #3
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    [*]Kingpin was a minor Spider-Man villain but is now Daredevil's archenemy.
    Yep,



    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...leryTransplant

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    I think the big thing is that Marvel made a point of having villains appear it different books and menace different heroes since the begining.

    It help make the universe feel bigger and more alive. Bad guys weren't sitting in the proverbial toybox waiting for their turn to menace X hero.

    They have their own schemes goals and agendas.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    They are more likely to appear in another character's books than at DC, though I think most villains are still primarily associated with a particular character, even if, as with Kingpin noted above, they may switch. Kind of in between a giant pool of villains shared between everyone and strict rogues galleries that only ever seem to go after one character, like is more common at DC. I think it's a nice balance, because the relationship can still feel personal between particular pairings, but at the same time the world feels more alive, and if a hero is just starting out or has a poor regular rogues gallery, they can still pull from other places to have someone to face off against.

  6. #6
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    They are more likely to appear in another character's books than at DC, though I think most villains are still primarily associated with a particular character, even if, as with Kingpin noted above, they may switch. Kind of in between a giant pool of villains shared between everyone and strict rogues galleries that only ever seem to go after one character, like is more common at DC. I think it's a nice balance, because the relationship can still feel personal between particular pairings, but at the same time the world feels more alive, and if a hero is just starting out or has a poor regular rogues gallery, they can still pull from other places to have someone to face off against.
    In dc a lot of heroes have their own cities. That makes it a bit less likely to run into other heroes. Mr. Freeze won't bump into Green Lantern too often in Gotham. But there theoretically is no reason that Wrecker on the streets on New York shouldn't bump I to Spider-Man or Cage while he's looking to pick a fight with Thor.

  7. #7
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    In dc a lot of heroes have their own cities. That makes it a bit less likely to run into other heroes. Mr. Freeze won't bump into Green Lantern too often in Gotham. But there theoretically is no reason that Wrecker on the streets on New York shouldn't bump I to Spider-Man or Cage while he's looking to pick a fight with Thor.
    Still, I feel like there would logically be more operation outside their own zones. People are more mobile now than ever. Young Justice got it right, even to an extreme, by having no rogues gallery to speak of (I feel like YJ is influenced by Marvel to a degree given the heavily connected world).

    In the comics, however, Batman never had to contend with the Rogues coming to Gotham, Wonder Woman never had a story where she was menaced by Reverse-Flash, Aquaman never had to deal with Lex Luthor trying to cause trouble for Atlantis, Green Lantern Corps never had to deal with Brainiac when Superman wasn't involved, Green Arrow never had to contend with the Riddler visiting Star City, and so on.

  8. #8
    Fantastic Member Sparko's Avatar
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    For a while I had been trying to figure why I’ve had a dislike with DC, but after reading this I really think you hit it right on the head for me. The DC world does feel smaller to me, and I have had issues reading the characters I like, or gravitate to, because this lack of cohesiveness with villains and with all the made up cities that anyone one hero or villain sticks with. Now, I’ve probably read 1 DC comic to every 100 Marvel comics, so maybe my perspective is off, but your post really resonated with me and what I’ve read.

  9. #9
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    For a very long time group editors kept a death grip on their villains. For many years you never saw a Spider-Man villain outside a Spider-Man book except in extreme cases. This was really the case in the 90's.

  10. #10
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    For a while I had been trying to figure why I’ve had a dislike with DC, but after reading this I really think you hit it right on the head for me. The DC world does feel smaller to me, and I have had issues reading the characters I like, or gravitate to, because this lack of cohesiveness with villains and with all the made up cities that anyone one hero or villain sticks with. Now, I’ve probably read 1 DC comic to every 100 Marvel comics, so maybe my perspective is off, but your post really resonated with me and what I’ve read.
    Honestly, I'm much in the same boat. I've always been Marvel over DC, and really can only get into DC a lot by animation. I can just jump into Marvel much easier than I can DC, because regardless of what book I'm reading it feels like it's part of a natural and connected world. My enjoyment of DC is rather limited because it feels like a bunch of micro-settings that only occasionally interact with each other. The main ones I like to read are Batman and related titles, Teen Titans, Green Arrow and Deathstroke. A little bit of Wonder Woman as well. With Marvel, it's a lot more varied. I'm currently reading all the Spider-titles, X-Men, Runaways, Daredevil, Avengers, and some individual Avenger stuff (including the IM/Cap/Thor trinity), and the Fantastic Four, and I know there's more on the way.

    Also, I know it sounds odd to say, but I really like the way few Marvel heroes can just fly as a superpower. Stan Lee said he hated how superheroes can fly for no reason, and set out to make sure everyone had some kind of unique mode of travel. It really does make characters feel unique, whether they hold a super hammer, use jet propulsion, swing on a web, have a suit of armor, ride on an object, glide in combination with sonic powers, leap great distances, have a wingsuit, a magical artifact, or by surrounding themselves with energy. Compare this to half the DC heroes flying just 'cause, or in the case of the Flash, running.

    To illustrate:

    Avengers.jpg
    DCRebirth.jpg

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I like some DC stuff, but I tend to just stick to a little corner here and there, like Batman or something, and that's easy to do because they are very self contained. That is what could be seen as an advantage of having a rogues gallery restricted to one character, it makes it easy to read a single book and not worry about what else is going on in the universe. But with Marvel, though I did start out focusing on one corner (X-Men) i branched out into the wider universe before too long, and though i do tend to focus on one corner for the most part, since i can't read everything, i am still always keeping an eye on the rest of it as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    In dc a lot of heroes have their own cities. That makes it a bit less likely to run into other heroes. Mr. Freeze won't bump into Green Lantern too often in Gotham. But there theoretically is no reason that Wrecker on the streets on New York shouldn't bump I to Spider-Man or Cage while he's looking to pick a fight with Thor.
    That is true, but even at Marvel you do have some characters that are not based in New York that have villains from other parts of the MU show up, like Scott Lang is now based in Florida, but when his book was still going you saw villains from elsewhere in it, or Madame Masque in Kate Bishop's book based in LA. A lot of the villains are not actually operating out of New York, even if they find themselves attacking it more often than not, because they're attacking a hero that operates from there, or they just figure it's a big target. Some are not even on Earth. So it's not much different for them to go after someone in LA or wherever.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member RachelGrey's Avatar
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    I find I am only selectively interested in DC. It's usually specific characters like Huntress, Batwoman, Jessica Cruz. The one I want to read about right now is Poison Ivy because it was implied that she is planning to become a more heroic type character and possibly the new representative for The Green.

    That's the difference I think, those four characters I mentioned in DC are all newer bronze age and later characters and they all change over time, they are allowed to grow and become something different over time.

    I find Marvel changes up their character status quo a lot more often, and the characters deal with personal problems almost as much as they deal with villains. Tony is going through a court case where he may not be able to prove he is a person anymore and will have his rights stripped away, Carol was outed as being half Kree and now she has become hated by the general public, Peter is starting to get his career on track finally and possibly even moving his relationship with MJ forward. The X-Men have formed a new nation of Krakoa and their country has become a world economic power comparable to Wakanda and politically independent like Atlantis. Thor has now become the King of Asgard.

    I find Marvel characters aren't stuck in a box as much as DC characters. I used to like Batman but now I just find him kind of boring like Superman. They are both stuck in an endless unchanging pattern. There were rumors on the Internet of an African American Batman, do it! Change it up, take the character in a different direction for a couple of years. Jane Foster as Thor was an excellent change to stir the Asgardians up for a bit. Thor's exploration of his own failings helped him become confident to become King of the Asgardians.

    I don't like sacred cows, I think it's great to stir things up and change things. I want my favorite characters to have a place in the new status quo somewhere, but I still enjoy when they try new stories with the characters and step out of the nostalgia stories for a while.

    I would love it if there was a big change and say Emma Frost joins the Avengers. Thor forms a team for a critical mission in the realms and pulls from all the groups. There are so many ways that things could be mixed up.

    Lol, have Superior Spiderman form his own Avengers team, the Superior Avengers, just for fun!

  13. #13
    Fantastic Member Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    Lol, have Superior Spiderman form his own Avengers team, the Superior Avengers, just for fun!
    That sounds like it would be tons of fun. I’d pick that up for sure.

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    I find I am only selectively interested in DC. It's usually specific characters like Huntress, Batwoman, Jessica Cruz. The one I want to read about right now is Poison Ivy because it was implied that she is planning to become a more heroic type character and possibly the new representative for The Green.

    That's the difference I think, those four characters I mentioned in DC are all newer bronze age and later characters and they all change over time, they are allowed to grow and become something different over time.

    I find Marvel changes up their character status quo a lot more often, and the characters deal with personal problems almost as much as they deal with villains. Tony is going through a court case where he may not be able to prove he is a person anymore and will have his rights stripped away, Carol was outed as being half Kree and now she has become hated by the general public, Peter is starting to get his career on track finally and possibly even moving his relationship with MJ forward. The X-Men have formed a new nation of Krakoa and their country has become a world economic power comparable to Wakanda and politically independent like Atlantis. Thor has now become the King of Asgard.
    Yeah. This is a large part of why I kind of gravitated towards the Asgard stuff and Loki in particular over the past oh, 10 years now i guess. They took a lot of chances with the characters and had them go through some stuff that changed the characters, and so far, it's had some lasting impacts, on Loki in particular who has gone from one of Marvel's biggest bads to turning face and asking to join the Avengers last month. (tho he had already sorta-kinda been a Young Avenger) It's been 10 years since he was really a villain (tho he played the part sometimes, had a couple backslide moments, but he rebounded in the end) and in that time he's been a child, a secret agent, and now king of Jotunheim. (tho he doesn't seem to like it very much, and would much rather be on Midgard) and seems to have been chosen by Eternity to do some sort of time..... stuff... I'm really curious to see how much of this will carry over with the new Thor writer, I hope a lot of it.

    to be fair, Marvel has not always stuck with changes, there are plenty of instances of them reverting characters to a safe classic status quo, and it was Stan Lee that popularized the idea of 'the illusion of change'. And I don't think every character really NEEDS to have transformative character arcs, sometimes they really do work fine with relatively little development in terms of personality etc (though i do like to see how their lives evolve around them, new relationships, maybe move them to a new location, and so on. even if they, as a character, remain much the same) but i do think Marvel does this more than DC does.
    Last edited by Raye; 09-03-2019 at 10:03 PM.

  15. #15
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    That sounds like it would be tons of fun. I’d pick that up for sure.
    Maybe, like, Dark Avengers, but they're actually trying to do good? And not in a Thunderbolts style ploy; they're just keeping their IDs secret because they wouldn't get any trust otherwise.

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