Captain America: Steve Rogers, #1

[Michael Watkins]

The reason an idiot like Trump has done so well in the US is in no small part due to people demonising reasonable political opinions as 'extreme', 'Nazi'-esque etc. As for the 'wrong side of history' nonsense, there's no such thing. History rarely lends itself to easy moral judgments, no matter how much you might like it to.

what's your idea of a difficult moral judgment?


anyways, this is pretty standard for Nick Spencer. he's a former politician. people don't even notice when he shows the reverse; villains espousing left wing ideology. it happens all the time in his Astonishing Ant-Man book. and he did introduce the Green Skull, iirc.

[Cloudman]

what's your idea of a difficult moral judgment?

Judging the entirety of history through the lens of modern morality, so that one can label oneself on 'the right side' and people with other opinions on 'the wrong side' of history.

[jcl100]

i'm not bothered that Sharon looks elderly. but why is she elderly-looking? did I miss an issue? she was quite young looking in Secret Avengers.

During Rick Remender's Captain America run she was temporarily stuck in Dimension Z where time moves at an accelerated rate relative to Earth.

[JoeWithoutFear]

people don't even notice when he shows the reverse; villains espousing left wing ideology. it happens all the time in his Astonishing Ant-Man book. and he did introduce the Green Skull, iirc.

Can you give me some examples? I'm genuinely curious about this.

[tg1982]

The comic looks great and I'm SUPER glad Steve is Cap again. And anyone who knows me, knows I'll be getting this comic as soon as I get paid. But the suit and shield need to go. It's such a bad design. Give him his Marvel Now! suit back, and his classic shield. And Give Falcap the photon shield cap used to have. Hopefully by the end of CWII Cap will go back to this...


Captain America - by Carlos Pacheco 2.jpg

[L.R Johansson]

Marvel does its usual thing of putting perfectly reasonable right-wing opinions into the mouth of an evil villain. Glad I decided to not put this propaganda on my pull list.

You are reading this way too literal - first, you are forgetting that the Red Skull has given up on classic racism - he's a speciesist now - he hates MUTANTS, people which he feels actually embodies the Jewish stereotypes his head was filled with earlier.

Secondly, you are forgetting that the bomber is actually portrayed as a fairly good guy - he's just getting swept up in the Red Skull's rhetoric.

Personally, I think the intention of RS isn't that he gives a sh*t about any of these things - he's just using extremes of it to lure people into Hydra, to bolster its ranks.

What, you think the intention of the writer is that Red Skull actually cares about USA? Or about the refugee-crisis in Europe? Or, that he would accept, if he was the POTUS, that ANYONE tries to take land from his government?? COME ON...!

Not his style. Not the intention of the story - I think the story is about showing that we must keep these concerns in check - that we must act with caution and reason, not emotion.

And hey... the last part with the hillbillies occupying land and trying to destroy an animal-sanctuary... surely, as a European(?) you can agree THAT part is simply stupid. To me, that's not some kind of "right", that's treason - and that's the kind of stuff you go to jail for.

[Michael Watkins]

Can you give me some examples? I'm genuinely curious about this.

if you read that issue with the new Giant-Man on the cover, said character is basically forced out of town because he tried to "save" people from a monster. it was a very liberal area and they reacted to the monster in a very liberal way; trying to get it on the protected species list. Scott was labeled as being against the green initiative by attacking the new Plantman. in general, Spencer tries to keep things topical. Scott's primary adversary, the Power Broker, created an app for super-villains in need of work. but it's portrayed in a way that isn't anti-corporate. Scott Lang is a small business owner who depends on the largesse of a wealthy former superheroine/current bank owner; yet still faces all the hurdles of the profession. he also breaks just as many rules/laws as the villains in the book. it's just a more even-handed approach than his work on Captain America (both titles).

[Michael Watkins]

During Rick Remender's Captain America run she was temporarily stuck in Dimension Z where time moves at an accelerated rate relative to Earth.

ahhh, that explains it. thanks. I tuned out entirely during that storyline.

[L.R Johansson]

Can you give me some examples? I'm genuinely curious about this.

Actually, the Green Skull was created by Remender - he's an ultra-environmentalist, who wants to, err... kill humanity to save the planet.

Another left-wing villain which was introduced recently was the Iron Nail - he's the villain that sucked the super-soldier serum out of Steve, and aged him up. He was, or is, not sure if he died in their final confrontation or not... a... STALINIST VILLAIN!! 0_o He's an old-school communist - abducting rich people and forcing them to slave in his mines, and if they try to revolt, he kills their families. He's a sort of take on Mao, Stalin, or... Kim Il-Sung!

Kind of fun, actually. It's been long enough that it was time to bring in some communist villains again.

Judging the entirety of history through the lens of modern morality, so that one can label oneself on 'the right side' and people with other opinions on 'the wrong side' of history.

Oh come on... that's not an answer to his question - he's asking you what you would say is a grey-area, a moment or thing which is hard to judge either good or bad. And you answer him with this straw-man, where you REFUSE to answer the question, but instead line up this straw-man of what you perceive liberals to be doing.

Can't you just answer the question? Tell him what you actually think - not what you think HE thinks.

[Coolatta]

The reason an idiot like Trump has done so well in the US is in no small part due to people demonising reasonable political opinions as 'extreme', 'Nazi'-esque etc. As for the 'wrong side of history' nonsense, there's no such thing. History rarely lends itself to easy moral judgments, no matter how much you might like it to.

The right only has itself to blame

[Michael Watkins]

Judging the entirety of history through the lens of modern morality, so that one can label oneself on 'the right side' and people with other opinions on 'the wrong side' of history.

i'm not sure that the term 'modern morality' means anything to me. the golden rule is timeless. there are times, throughout history, where people intentionally disregarded that rule. enslaving people is the wrong thing to do. murdering people is the wrong thing to do. spewing hatred? probably the wrong thing to do. note, I am not calling the people 'bad' or 'good.' my focus is on their actions.

[Cloudman]

You are reading this way too literal - first, you are forgetting that the Red Skull has given up on classic racism - he's a speciesist now - he hates MUTANTS, people which he feels actually embodies the Jewish stereotypes his head was filled with earlier.

Secondly, you are forgetting that the bomber is actually portrayed as a fairly good guy - he's just getting swept up in the Red Skull's rhetoric.

If the bomber understands what he's doing, he's evil. If he doesn't, he's a blind sheep. There's no way you could possibly spin this as an even-handed portrayal of working class rage. At best, it's patronising.

Personally, I think the intention of RS isn't that he gives a sh*t about any of these things - he's just using extremes of it to lure people into Hydra, to bolster its ranks.

What, you think the intention of the writer is that Red Skull actually cares about USA? Or about the refugee-crisis in Europe? Or, that he would accept, if he was the POTUS, that ANYONE tries to take land from his government?? COME ON...!

Not his style. Not the intention of the story - I think the story is about showing that we must keep these concerns in check - that we must act with caution and reason, not emotion.

And hey... the last part with the hillbillies occupying land and trying to destroy an animal-sanctuary... surely, as a European(?) you can agree THAT part is simply stupid. To me, that's not some kind of "right", that's treason - and that's the kind of stuff you go to jail for.

I looked it up, but I'm afraid I don't even understand the news story about the animal sanctuary. I try to keep up with US news but it's hard enough keeping up with our own.

Oh come on... that's not an answer to his question - he's asking you what you would say is a grey-area, a moment or thing which is hard to judge either good or bad. And you answer him with this straw-man, where you REFUSE to answer the question, but instead line up this straw-man of what you perceive liberals to be doing.

Can't you just answer the question? Tell him what you actually think - not what you think HE thinks.

I really don't think it's my duty to give people a history lesson and I don't think it's particularly on topic, but fine. In the 20th century, numerous militant groups have used bombings (often of totally innocent civilians) in the name of their cause. Many of those same groups are celebrated by most of the western world anyway because people agree with their cause. Where would such groups fall on a simplistic binary of 'right/wrong'? Take almost any war ever, and innocent people will have fallen victim to it. The war may still be necessary, however. Where does that fit on the 'right/wrong' moral compass? History is not binary, never has been and never will be. The 'right side of history' argument is trotted out by people who have scant understanding of history or morality.

i'm not sure that the term 'modern morality' means anything to me. the golden rule is timeless. there are times, throughout history, where people intentionally disregarded that rule. enslaving people is the wrong thing to do. murdering people is the wrong thing to do. spewing hatred? probably the wrong thing to do. note, I am not calling the people 'bad' or 'good.' my focus is on their actions.

Perceptions of moral behaviour change drastically throughout history. Things that were treated with scorn 100 years ago are now commonplace and even celebrated. The point is that trying to place yourself on the right side of history and others on the wrong side, as several people in this thread have tried to, is a vain effort given that none of us have any idea what ideas will be popular another 100 years down the line.

[Prof. Warren]

Perceptions of moral behaviour change drastically throughout history. Things that were treated with scorn 100 years ago are now commonplace and even celebrated. The point is that trying to place yourself on the right side of history and others on the wrong side, as several people in this thread have tried to, is a vain effort given that none of us have any idea what ideas will be popular another 100 years down the line.

This line of thinking is just a way of excusing sh*tty beliefs. If slavery came back into fashion in 100 years, for instance, it would still be wrong. Just because most of the population was cool with it at one time doesn't mean that it was ever right. Segregation, the suppression of women's rights...these are also bad things. It's ok to say that there is a right and wrong side of those issues. We really don't have to wait another hundred years or more to see if things pan out on those fronts.

[Dustellar]

I don't like Red Skull as leader of Hydra, neither Zemo... bring back the true supreme hydra and leader Baron Strucker or at least Madame Hydra!

[Baron of Faltine]

The reason an idiot like Trump has done so well in the US is in no small part due to people demonising reasonable political opinions as 'extreme', 'Nazi'-esque etc. As for the 'wrong side of history' nonsense, there's no such thing. History rarely lends itself to easy moral judgments, no matter how much you might like it to.

Now, I'm not american, but i think that there is the fact that some of these reasonable opinions are ACTUALLY extreme, and look normal only if you are in the mental view "oh poor me i'm oppressed and everythign i own dear is in danger and someone, someone small and beatable, must be responsible" mental state. Add to this that Amercia is more right winged that the rest of the world is comfortable to admit. Even your left-wing sound quite right winged to my eyes. But i agree that that fact that no one address WHY he is so succesful for true, like how unsafe every one feel(not jus tin AMerica, but not always for the same reason.. I live in Italy and who i fear most are not immigrants or terrorist...Is young mobster or worst mobster wannabe who mug or pretend racket extorsion...99% locals..Still i get the feeling that everyone is afraid or anxious, nowaday. At least we are not in mutual annnihilation cold war situation...yet.).