Should the Justice Society exist in the main DCU?

[jetengine]

Thats the beauty of the Johnny Thunder thing, by the time they come back and peoples memories are restored Supermans been cemented as "The first" even if its just for his generation.

Theres also the fact that he's arguably more powerful then the JSA (depending on membership) and that unlike them he's fully open with his identity, no mask or anything. Re member to a good majority of the DCU Superman is Kal-El a friendly alien who was raised on earth but helps humanity out of a sense of decency and lives in the arctic.

[CaptCleghorn]

How controversial are we talking? I just want to know if I'm greenlighting a Black Label or Elseworlds.

One of my oft-used phrases on the JSA threads is that JSA fans are like pizza fans. We all want pizza, but when it comes time to order, we can't all agree on toppings.

[Jekyll]

Yes the JSA should exist in the main DCU. They predate the league, and in my opinion are better characters than the league. Excited to have them back and I hope DC doesn’t screw them up like they have most everything else.

[Dark-Jacket]

Robinson and Johns runs indicated that yes, the JSA can strive in today setting.

[KurtW95]

They should exist on the main Earth as pioneer superheroes who were around in WWII. Some of which are still alive because of their powers. Also have Earth-2 exist where they are all in their prime and the setting is essentially the present but compatible with the original team with more of a retro feel. That would be where Power Girl hails from. Unlike the main universe, it would have people like Batman and Superman as members as well as other superheroes who wouldn’t be able to be around due to time. Also Earth-2 would be the world of the reincarnated Hawks where the main Earth be Thanagarians.

[MajorHoy]

I'm not sure what's going on in peoples' heads, but if I had to guess, there is a fear that if the JSA can't do their thing in the main universe, they won't be as successful. If that's the case, the main issue that needs to be addressed is how DC is utlizing (or not utilizing) its Multiverse. If the JSA is shoved in a setting they were never meant to be, that can have dire ramifications for them, and also jumble things up with the entire universe somehow. The easiest, cleanest way to present the JSA the way the JSA was meant to be presented is to put them in their own universe, where you don't have to do all kinds of silly mental gymnastics just to make them work right (and they probably STILL won't work right).

It seems to me that if DC keeps the JSA and the JL on the same Earth, one team will always overshadow the other, and to me it would be simpler if each team were the premiere team on their own Earths. (But then again, that's how I read about them for more than ten years prior to CoIE, so that would color my thinking, too.)

[SiegePerilous02]

But that just feels like the exact same argument people make for the Post-Crisis universe .

So it's going to in a circular argument no matter what

But the pre-Crisis set up allows for not making needless headaches our of characters like Power Girl or the Hawks, and costing Superman his status as the first, so I find it preferable.

I guess it's the opposite for me where I've read a lot of Batman and I found Ted Grant's presence to be a matter of course and fun. Just like those stories where Batman and Alan Scott meet up and relate as respective heroes of Gotham.

But it's usually in the context of Alan and Ted being more experienced than Bruce, and that just seems false to me. Because we all know in actual publication Batman predates them and Gotham was created for him.

The stuff with the Trinity in particular coming after the JSA always feels inauthentic. It's not actual DC history. And those scenes are used more to boost up Ted and Alan than Bruce, who has far more vital relationships with Earth-1 heroes even after the COIE merger. I guess for JSA fans it enriches them, but as a fan primarily of Bruce and his generation, it feels like fluff we could get by without and not worth the continuity hijincks of merging two incompatible histories.

Compared to Jay's Post-Crisis presence in the Flash books versus his presence through the Multiverse and how little he's used on the TV show...I don't think there's even a comparison.

It doesn't really make a difference now since Jay isn't appearing regularly at all, but they've never really tried the pre-Crisis set up with some of the modern writing and lore additions, so we can't know for sure until something like it is given a chance.

The New 52 version was not it.

It was "it's own thing" but that's what people are advocating for isn't it? Instead of the JSA being secondary to the League and whatnot? The book was independent and it's own thing, and a popular run, so being in a Post-Crisis status doesn't need to hinder the JSA.

Well if they're advocating for it, why the resistance to putting them on their own Earth? Then it's easy to not make them secondary to the League. They are the cross Earth equivalents to the League, they are not meant to occupy the same space. And no, that doesn't apply to the Titans either, because they have always been part of the same continuity to the JL and have actual ties to them.

It was a popular post-Crisis run, but it wasn't really followed up by anything popular. So at the end of the day, the JSA need a strong creator advocating for them or else DC is likely to just ignore them no matter what.

I always thought that having superman be the first super hero doesn't bring anything to him actually. It seems more important to the writer than for the reader. And it's not accurate... pre-flashpoint superman is not the first super hero, for what's worth, 1938 superman isn't really too. He is more of a genre codifier.

I like the idea that Superman is just like everybody else and happens to have godlike powers.

Pre-Flashpoint Superman is not the original Superman. Him having that status quo of not being the first isn't a compelling argument in its favor by itself, because that was a change creators in the past made that the company shouldn't have to be beholden to. For the first 50ish years of DC's publication history, Superman was one of the first heroes on Earth-2 and Earth-1.

Him being the genre codifier essentially makes him the first in all the ways that matter. There were a handful of other superheroes, but the genre as we know it and many major characters like Batman, Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel and the majority of the JSA would not exist without him coming first.

[manwhohaseverything]

Him being the genre codifier essentially makes him the first in all the ways that matter. There were a handful of other superheroes, but the genre as we know it and many major characters like Batman, Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel and the majority of the JSA would not exist without him coming first.

What does "genre codifer" mean? Why aren't phantom, mandrake.. Etc considered to be "genre codifer" or the first? I mean, phantom has all the aspects of a superhero.

[SiegePerilous02]

What does "genre codifer" mean? Why aren't phantom, mandrake.. Etc considered to be "genre codifer" or the first? I mean, phantom has all the aspects of a superhero.

The typical superhero image people have is a flying brick in a cape. It's why there are so many expies of him in particular every time a superhero homage/parody is being done.

The Phantom pre-dates him and has aspects of a superhero, but the genre as we know it didn't erupt around the Phantom. DC comics and and the genre as we know them wouldn't exist without the success of Action Comics.

[manwhohaseverything]

The typical superhero image people have is a flying brick in a cape. It's why there are so many expies of him in particular every time a superhero homage/parody is being done.

The Phantom pre-dates him and has aspects of a superhero, but the genre as we know it didn't erupt around the Phantom. DC comics and and the genre as we know them wouldn't exist without the success of Action Comics.

Cool!phantom was the first hero I ever got exposed too. When i was little kid i used to run around screaming "i call upon the power of ten tigers" with a ring and a mask i made on.i probably looked like an idiot doing it too.

[SiegePerilous02]

Cool!phantom was the first hero I ever got exposed too. When i was little kid i used to run around screaming "i call upon the power of ten tigers" with a ring and a mask i made on.i probably looked like an idiot doing it too.

Lol we all looked like idiots pretending to be superheroes, you're not alone?
Was the first exposure the Billy Zane movie?

[manwhohaseverything]

Lol we all looked like idiots pretending to be superheroes, you're not alone?
Was the first exposure the Billy Zane movie?

No, although i later saw that. There were these cartoons that used to air. There was phantom,flash Gordon, he man, denver the last dinosaur, defenders of the earth, mummy's alive... Etc (i don't remember the channel name.i was too little) . He man and phantom were my favourite.

[stargazer01]

Superman defined the genre, it's why it's called SUPER heroes.

[Cmbmool]

My one provision with all his stuff is that I'd pull a Hippolyta and have Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman alongside them in some way.

I'd have Diana actually debut alongside them.

In Superman and Batman's cases, I'd have them go back in time and inspire them and participate in the couple of actual 1940s adventures we saw Superman and Batman in.

And I'd have something of a self-fulfilling loop there. In that Superman and Batman have more or less their real world cultural impact. Batman is a myth in Gotham before the Waynes are shot and possibly inspires Thomas Wayne's Halloween costume. Superman grows up inspired by the Superman of World War II, not realizing it's him all along. This isn't as crazy as it sounds since Superboy grew up knowing about Superman in the Silver-Age.

Thus you preserve the complete JSA history and get around the dumb conceit of "five years ago" or "ten years ago" timelines which deny Superman or Batman having any cultural impact in-universe. They grow up with legends about their future time traveling exploits. Superman thinks he's riffing on an older hero but it was him all along. Batman thinks he's playing on an urban myth that his father had a gag Halloween costume based on but he was the inspiration for the myth all along.

Superman comics were published and kids grew up wanting to be Batman, just minus any secret identity details.

Wonder Woman has just been around a long time.

Now that’s a great way to keep things in proper order via a time travel methods.

However I am also okay with the separate Earth idea or how Barry was influenced by Jay’s adventures to become the silver age Flash.

[Ascended]

How controversial are we talking? I just want to know if I'm greenlighting a Black Label or Elseworlds.

....it could be either, I suppose. Seems to me the main difference between the main continuity/standard stories and Black Label isnt as pronounced as it could be. I mean, we've had plenty of death, gore, and sex in the main titles, and even on occasion a story that dealt with a real issue with complexity and maturity.

I don't need to use the word "f*ck" for my JSA, or explicit sex scenes, so it could go either way.

With Hourman I'd just be diving into the idea of addiction (that's already there) to a deeper level than main titles usually go (especially how it tears a life apart), and Sandman would be a tad more than a little crazy due to his precognition, and dealing with more disgusting crime than bank robbers.