Should the Justice Society exist in the main DCU?

[Dispenser Of Truth]

So between plans for their return in some form for DC Rebirth and spoilers:

their introduction to the Arrowverse

end of spoilers there's been some talk about the JSA lately and their importance. But as far as their importance goes, a question: should they actually be something that exists in the main DC universe, or should they be off in their own corner of the Multiverse?

I imagine there'll be plenty to the contrary, so here's my thought upfront: they 100% cannot be part of the main DCU, because they shatter the foundations it operates upon just by existing, as exemplified above all else by this:



If there was any reason in play at all whatsoever here, the next words wouldn't have been Alan Scott saying "I have an idea", it would've been Ted Grant with "Guys, guys, I'm flattered as I've ever been in my life. Seriously, you have no idea. But, uh, I'm a nonagenarian ex-boxer in a leather fetish cat outfit, and you're fucking Superman, what are you even talking about? Is this a Red Kryptonite thing?"

The entire post-Crisis premise of the Justice Society is that they're the big guns in a world where they may never, ever be permitted to be the big guns, but we all have to collectively pretend they're important anyway. Yes, they're historically crucial to the genre and have plenty of goods comics to their name, and nothing can undo that. But they're not *the* superhero team of their world - that's the Justice League. Great as he is, in the eyes of the world Jay Garrick isn't The Original Flash, he's the Old Flash or the Other Flash if he exists at all. So you end up in a position where you get two teams: the original heroes, and the current guys. The current guys are the big, vital ones with the iconic characters that show up in the comics and movies, but aren't the original, primal heroes, just the current generation. But that puts a team that's been presented as secondary for decades in the roles of being the originals, the platonic champions by which the heroes we read about every month are measured against, and they just can't live up to that, because if they could, why would the Justice League even be around? Why don't these guys fight any of the cool villains, or have Batman, or lack a need to justify their presence the way the JLA does?

They're not allowed to be the leads of their universe, and it diminishes everyone involved, making the originals unable to live up to their own hype, and the main guys are presented as not being fully the icons they actually are. It'd maybe be less of a problem if the JLA were clearly the direct successors of the JSA - then you'd get something out of them being around in terms of their existence stitching something positive into the fabric of the universe - but outside of Green Lantern and Flash (the former of whom has no connection to his modern counterpart, the latter of whom was just a guy who incidentally went through the same accident as the modern guy for the first decadeish of the setup of them existing in the same world), the legacy of the JSA is limited to the JSA itself. It is its own little corner of things just as much as it ever was on Earth 2, but now it upsets the fabric of the main guys.

On a similar note, unless you're going to majorly age up the Trinity, you're putting the JSA as the Original Superheroes ahead of the actual original superheroes. Superman's indisputably the guy, but once you throw in the JSA as being people that existed before him, that stops. He might still be the greatest and the example everyone ends up following, but if there were dozens upon dozens of superheroes before him, he isn't exactly the most important thing that's ever happened anymore. Him saving a spaceplane or Lois falling out of a helicopter of whatever goes from "Jesus Christ in Heaven above us! A hero from the sky with the strength of a million men who walks on air and kindles fire with a glance! Salvation, salvation! Truly, brothers and sisters, an age of miracles and wonders as come unto us all as gods walk the Earth!" to "Flying guy, neat! Been awhile. Did Hawkman have a kid that doesn't need wings or something? Ooh, this guy has lasers, cool!" It's a "legacy" that removes the in-universe significance of what they themselves are all in fact the legacy of. They reduce everything by being 'the originals' in a world where they're neither the most important bearers of their own names, nor entirely actually the originals.

Now that I've crapped all over them, I gotta say I do think they still need to be around, just either on Earth 2 or radically altered. On Earth 2, they can be the head of the table in the way they were built to be, with their elder statesmen Wonder Woman and Green Lantern and whatnot, and current guys directly descended from them who are Earth's new Greatest Heroes but still walk in their footsteps. They can still cross over with the Justice League guys plenty, with the two truly on equal terms (and on that note, Barry Allen being inspired by Jay Garrick is so much better when he's from another world. It's the difference between me being a fan of a celebrity, growing up to become a celebrity myself, and then meeting them, and becoming real-life Superman, then travelling to another universe to learn Superman is real and then we team up). Or, if you want them in the main world, make them a secret group like on Smallville, or the society of pulp heroes in the first issue of Planetary. It gives them mystique and importance and ties them even more directly into the development of the superhero as a concept by harkening back to the 20s/30s characters they were inspired by, while maintaining the place of Superman as the first superhero.

[The Darknight Detective]

They should always be on their own Earth, IMO.

[Trey Strain]

It's probably going to be close, and people haven't even seen it yet. After they see it, I'm sure the yes vote will go up decisively.

I fully understand the position of the people who want them in the past or in their own world. There's a romance, a charm, in that. But DC Comics exists to sell comics, and putting them here as fish out of water and having to adjust to the 21st century will generate stories by its nature. They'll have to meet today's heroes and villains, and their own villains can be depicted as just arising today.

A comic that writes itself that way is a winner.

If you want JSA stores set in the past, DC can print minis about that, and you'll be able to encourage the publication of more such stories by buying them.

If you want stories in another world, you've got Earth 2 now, so go support that comic with your wallets. If you want changes in it, let DC know.

In either case, don't argue that they can't be here and now too. You can have them all three ways if you'll let your dollars do the talking.

[The Darknight Detective]

It's probably dead heat, and people haven't even seen it yet. After they see it, I'm sure the yes vote will go up decisively.

I'll most likely enjoy it, but I will always believe the JSA should be on their own world. I don't care about the era, either. Place them in the future for all I care.

[SiegePerilous02]

They should be on their own Earth. The legacy aspect of them being the first group on the main Earth doesn't really have any benefits. It's actually detrimental to almost everybody involved, as Dispenser of Truth so excellently laid out.

[Trey Strain]

They should be on their own Earth. The legacy aspect of them being the first group on the main Earth doesn't really have any benefits. It's actually detrimental to almost everybody involved, as Dispenser of Truth so excellently laid out.

They're in their own world now. That's not working out so well.

[Myskin]

Quite frankly, I'd put them on the same earth with the Justice League, in the past. Basically, I'd re-create the same pre-FP situation.

IMHO, the whole "who came first" thing does not diminish at all the importance of the present-day characters. The whole "Superman should be the first public superhero ever" thing is overrated. Seriously, the importance of Superman should refer to what he actively does, his field of action, not the fact the he came first in an imaginary timeline. As usual, the Batman situation represents the best example. In almost every past version of the DCU he wasn't the first superhero. But this doesn't prevent him from being the most important one, or the one with the best stories.

And by the way, it's not that - I don't know - a figure like Nikola Tesla is diminished because Leonardo Da Vinci came first. They're both important on their own account. It's not a challenge.

Having the JSA on the same earth with the JLA has more advantages than having them on a different earth, or not having a JSA at all. The whole concept of legacy wouldn't make sense if we couldn't notice a progression on DC earth - an evolution from WWII days to present days and to the future. And I think that we all miss the concept of legacy in the DCU.

By the way, some years ago, I started with a friend of mine a very long reasoning about the concept of costumes. The premise - which we both agree upon - was that the concept of costume is absurd, and there is no discernible reason for Superman to wear a costume. Well, as I said it was a pretty long conversation, but at the end we created a detailed timeline which made the concept of costume a bit more acceptable and realistic. Basically, we decided that the DCU, aesthetically and culturally speaking, is divergent from the real world we all live in. The divergence started when some costumed heroes (the JSA) became public: their costume were consciously inspired by the ones worn by strongmen and circus acrobats (I remember that Alan Scott's Gladiator-like boots were very important for this concept to become plausible) and, when Superman and Batman became heroes, the degree of "divergence" was even higher and the idea of costumed people had become a fact. That's why Superman wears a proper super-suit, while Alan Scott and Jay Garrick wear something which can be considered as a compromise between a circus costume and a vaguely realistic garment. All this leads to the future, when wearing a costume has become a common social norm (with the Legion, for example).

And by the way, I think that the mere existence of James Robinson's Starman is enough of a reason to preserve the JSA on the same earth with the JLA.

[scary harpy]

They should always be on their own Earth, IMO.

They should be on their own Earth. The legacy aspect of them being the first group on the main Earth doesn't really have any benefits. It's actually detrimental to almost everybody involved, as Dispenser of Truth so excellently laid out.

I agree.

DC tried the JSA on the same earth as the JLA for decades. It was a big, hot mess.

Too many heroes & villains were lost or ignored. Most solutions only caused more problems!

On separate earths, the JSA & the JLA will be able to shine and the JSA can revitalize it's rich history.

[Sandy Hausler]

They should always be on their own Earth, IMO.

I stand with my co-moderator!

[MajorHoy]

From 05-20-2016:

So between plans for their return in some form for DC Rebirth and spoilers:

their introduction to the Arrowverse

end of spoilers there's been some talk about the JSA lately and their importance. But as far as their importance goes, a question: should they actually be something that exists in the main DC universe, or should they be off in their own corner of the Multiverse?

I'm still waiting for DC to decide this and let us know, but I'm afraid what their possible "return" may give us nearly two-and-a-half years later (and counting!) . . .

Oh, as for poll results, last count showed:

* The classic JSA should exist on the main Earth. = 31 votes
* The JSA should be on another Earth if they're around at all. = 29 votes
* The JSA should be on the main Earth, but with alterations. = 3 votes

However, I have no idea how long it's been since anybody voted on this.
(Last post is dated 05-21-2016.)

[MajorHoy]

Happened to stumble across this old thread:

So between plans for their return in some form for DC Rebirth and spoilers:

their introduction to the Arrowverse

end of spoilers there's been some talk about the JSA lately and their importance. But as far as their importance goes, a question: should they actually be something that exists in the main DC universe, or should they be off in their own corner of the Multiverse? . . .

The thread was originally started back in May of 2016, and it's just now (late August of 2019, a little past Rebirth) that we're FINALLY getting a "return" of a 1940s JSA in stories.

And at last check, the poll with this thread had:

* The classic JSA should exist on the main Earth = 38 votes
* The JSA should be on another Earth if they're around at all = 32 votes
* The JSA should be on the main Earth, but with alterations = 3 votes

[MajorHoy]

Since I bumped up this thread a little over twelve hours ago, the poll is currently at:

* The classic JSA should exist on the main Earth = 45 votes (+7)
* The JSA should be on another Earth if they're around at all = 36 votes (+4)
* The JSA should be on the main Earth, but with alterations = 4 votes (+1)

[Lee]

If the Justice Society are to be part of the main DC universe, then I think it makes the most sense for all (or at least most) of them to be dead in 2019, and for a Justice Society comic series to be a period piece.

[Vampire Savior]

I would put them on their own Earth and have them crossover with the JLA in Crisis comics like they regularly did Pre-Crisis. Those characters just don't jive very smoothly being on the same Earth as the Earth 1 characters, especially if one tries to retain that World War 2 background.

[MajorHoy]

NOTE:This thread was originally started back in May of 2016.

--------------------------

With 113 people having previously voted,

* The classic JSA should exist on the main Earth = 60 votes
* The JSA should be on another Earth if they're around at all = 46 votes
* The JSA should be on the main Earth, but with alterations = 7 votes