Should the Justice Society exist in the main DCU?

[Dispenser Of Truth]

So between plans for their return in some form for DC Rebirth and spoilers:

their introduction to the Arrowverse

end of spoilers there's been some talk about the JSA lately and their importance. But as far as their importance goes, a question: should they actually be something that exists in the main DC universe, or should they be off in their own corner of the Multiverse?

I imagine there'll be plenty to the contrary, so here's my thought upfront: they 100% cannot be part of the main DCU, because they shatter the foundations it operates upon just by existing, as exemplified above all else by this:



If there was any reason in play at all whatsoever here, the next words wouldn't have been Alan Scott saying "I have an idea", it would've been Ted Grant with "Guys, guys, I'm flattered as I've ever been in my life. Seriously, you have no idea. But, uh, I'm a nonagenarian ex-boxer in a leather fetish cat outfit, and you're fucking Superman, what are you even talking about? Is this a Red Kryptonite thing?"

The entire post-Crisis premise of the Justice Society is that they're the big guns in a world where they may never, ever be permitted to be the big guns, but we all have to collectively pretend they're important anyway. Yes, they're historically crucial to the genre and have plenty of goods comics to their name, and nothing can undo that. But they're not *the* superhero team of their world - that's the Justice League. Great as he is, in the eyes of the world Jay Garrick isn't The Original Flash, he's the Old Flash or the Other Flash if he exists at all. So you end up in a position where you get two teams: the original heroes, and the current guys. The current guys are the big, vital ones with the iconic characters that show up in the comics and movies, but aren't the original, primal heroes, just the current generation. But that puts a team that's been presented as secondary for decades in the roles of being the originals, the platonic champions by which the heroes we read about every month are measured against, and they just can't live up to that, because if they could, why would the Justice League even be around? Why don't these guys fight any of the cool villains, or have Batman, or lack a need to justify their presence the way the JLA does?

They're not allowed to be the leads of their universe, and it diminishes everyone involved, making the originals unable to live up to their own hype, and the main guys are presented as not being fully the icons they actually are. It'd maybe be less of a problem if the JLA were clearly the direct successors of the JSA - then you'd get something out of them being around in terms of their existence stitching something positive into the fabric of the universe - but outside of Green Lantern and Flash (the former of whom has no connection to his modern counterpart, the latter of whom was just a guy who incidentally went through the same accident as the modern guy for the first decadeish of the setup of them existing in the same world), the legacy of the JSA is limited to the JSA itself. It is its own little corner of things just as much as it ever was on Earth 2, but now it upsets the fabric of the main guys.

On a similar note, unless you're going to majorly age up the Trinity, you're putting the JSA as the Original Superheroes ahead of the actual original superheroes. Superman's indisputably the guy, but once you throw in the JSA as being people that existed before him, that stops. He might still be the greatest and the example everyone ends up following, but if there were dozens upon dozens of superheroes before him, he isn't exactly the most important thing that's ever happened anymore. Him saving a spaceplane or Lois falling out of a helicopter of whatever goes from "Jesus Christ in Heaven above us! A hero from the sky with the strength of a million men who walks on air and kindles fire with a glance! Salvation, salvation! Truly, brothers and sisters, an age of miracles and wonders as come unto us all as gods walk the Earth!" to "Flying guy, neat! Been awhile. Did Hawkman have a kid that doesn't need wings or something? Ooh, this guy has lasers, cool!" It's a "legacy" that removes the in-universe significance of what they themselves are all in fact the legacy of. They reduce everything by being 'the originals' in a world where they're neither the most important bearers of their own names, nor entirely actually the originals.

Now that I've crapped all over them, I gotta say I do think they still need to be around, just either on Earth 2 or radically altered. On Earth 2, they can be the head of the table in the way they were built to be, with their elder statesmen Wonder Woman and Green Lantern and whatnot, and current guys directly descended from them who are Earth's new Greatest Heroes but still walk in their footsteps. They can still cross over with the Justice League guys plenty, with the two truly on equal terms (and on that note, Barry Allen being inspired by Jay Garrick is so much better when he's from another world. It's the difference between me being a fan of a celebrity, growing up to become a celebrity myself, and then meeting them, and becoming real-life Superman, then travelling to another universe to learn Superman is real and then we team up). Or, if you want them in the main world, make them a secret group like on Smallville, or the society of pulp heroes in the first issue of Planetary. It gives them mystique and importance and ties them even more directly into the development of the superhero as a concept by harkening back to the 20s/30s characters they were inspired by, while maintaining the place of Superman as the first superhero.

[The Darknight Detective]

They should always be on their own Earth, IMO.

[Trey Strain]

It's probably going to be close, and people haven't even seen it yet. After they see it, I'm sure the yes vote will go up decisively.

I fully understand the position of the people who want them in the past or in their own world. There's a romance, a charm, in that. But DC Comics exists to sell comics, and putting them here as fish out of water and having to adjust to the 21st century will generate stories by its nature. They'll have to meet today's heroes and villains, and their own villains can be depicted as just arising today.

A comic that writes itself that way is a winner.

If you want JSA stores set in the past, DC can print minis about that, and you'll be able to encourage the publication of more such stories by buying them.

If you want stories in another world, you've got Earth 2 now, so go support that comic with your wallets. If you want changes in it, let DC know.

In either case, don't argue that they can't be here and now too. You can have them all three ways if you'll let your dollars do the talking.

[The Darknight Detective]

It's probably dead heat, and people haven't even seen it yet. After they see it, I'm sure the yes vote will go up decisively.

I'll most likely enjoy it, but I will always believe the JSA should be on their own world. I don't care about the era, either. Place them in the future for all I care.

[SiegePerilous02]

They should be on their own Earth. The legacy aspect of them being the first group on the main Earth doesn't really have any benefits. It's actually detrimental to almost everybody involved, as Dispenser of Truth so excellently laid out.

[Myskin]

Quite frankly, I'd put them on the same earth with the Justice League, in the past. Basically, I'd re-create the same pre-FP situation.

IMHO, the whole "who came first" thing does not diminish at all the importance of the present-day characters. The whole "Superman should be the first public superhero ever" thing is overrated. Seriously, the importance of Superman should refer to what he actively does, his field of action, not the fact the he came first in an imaginary timeline. As usual, the Batman situation represents the best example. In almost every past version of the DCU he wasn't the first superhero. But this doesn't prevent him from being the most important one, or the one with the best stories.

And by the way, it's not that - I don't know - a figure like Nikola Tesla is diminished because Leonardo Da Vinci came first. They're both important on their own account. It's not a challenge.

Having the JSA on the same earth with the JLA has more advantages than having them on a different earth, or not having a JSA at all. The whole concept of legacy wouldn't make sense if we couldn't notice a progression on DC earth - an evolution from WWII days to present days and to the future. And I think that we all miss the concept of legacy in the DCU.

By the way, some years ago, I started with a friend of mine a very long reasoning about the concept of costumes. The premise - which we both agree upon - was that the concept of costume is absurd, and there is no discernible reason for Superman to wear a costume. Well, as I said it was a pretty long conversation, but at the end we created a detailed timeline which made the concept of costume a bit more acceptable and realistic. Basically, we decided that the DCU, aesthetically and culturally speaking, is divergent from the real world we all live in. The divergence started when some costumed heroes (the JSA) became public: their costume were consciously inspired by the ones worn by strongmen and circus acrobats (I remember that Alan Scott's Gladiator-like boots were very important for this concept to become plausible) and, when Superman and Batman became heroes, the degree of "divergence" was even higher and the idea of costumed people had become a fact. That's why Superman wears a proper super-suit, while Alan Scott and Jay Garrick wear something which can be considered as a compromise between a circus costume and a vaguely realistic garment. All this leads to the future, when wearing a costume has become a common social norm (with the Legion, for example).

And by the way, I think that the mere existence of James Robinson's Starman is enough of a reason to preserve the JSA on the same earth with the JLA.

[scary harpy]

They should always be on their own Earth, IMO.

They should be on their own Earth. The legacy aspect of them being the first group on the main Earth doesn't really have any benefits. It's actually detrimental to almost everybody involved, as Dispenser of Truth so excellently laid out.

I agree.

DC tried the JSA on the same earth as the JLA for decades. It was a big, hot mess.

Too many heroes & villains were lost or ignored. Most solutions only caused more problems!

On separate earths, the JSA & the JLA will be able to shine and the JSA can revitalize it's rich history.

[Trey Strain]

They should be on their own Earth. The legacy aspect of them being the first group on the main Earth doesn't really have any benefits. It's actually detrimental to almost everybody involved, as Dispenser of Truth so excellently laid out.

They're in their own world now. That's not working out so well.

[Trey Strain]

I agree.

DC tried the JSA on the same earth as the JLA for decades. It was a big, hot mess.

Too many heroes & villains were lost or ignored. Most solutions only caused more problems!

On separate earths, the JSA & the JLA will be able to shine and the JSA can revitalize it's rich history.

It didn't work because they were a million years old and they weren't newcomers. This will be different.

BTW, they did sell, despite the handicap of being ready for assisted living.

[Trey Strain]

To the people who say to keep them in their own world and no place else:

That didn't sell. The market didn't support it.

So what are you saying here? That they should just go away because you don't want to see them any other way?

That's not a serious proposal.

[SiegePerilous02]

IMHO, the whole "who came first" thing does not diminish at all the importance of the present-day characters. The whole "Superman should be the first public superhero ever" is overrated. Seriously, the importance of Superman should refer to what he actively does, his field of action, not the fact the he came first in an imaginary timeline. As usual, the Batman situation represents the best example. In almost every past version of the DCU he wasn't the first superhero. But this doesn't prevent him from being the most important one, or the one with the best stories.

But Superman's impact on the world is diminished if he isn't the first superhero, or at least the first public one. He's the one who ushers in the age of super beings, the Alpha, the ideal, etc. The presence of the JSA, along with Superman's diminished power levels in post-Crisis, have contributed to his myth being marginalized. There's also the fact that not only is he known as the first superhero in-universe, but out of universe as well. Why should a vastly more important character like Superman have that status taken away from him for the sake of a bunch of B and C list superheroes and their legacy that didn't even exist until 1986?

Having the JSA on the same earth with the JLA has more advantages than having them on a different earth, or not having a JSA at all. The whole concept of legacy wouldn't make sense if we couldn't notice a progression on DC earth - an evolution from WWII days to present days and to the future. And I think that we all miss the concept of legacy in the DCU.

But not everyone misses legacy, and its importance has been kind of inflated over the years. Most of DC's major, most popular heroes and villains are not legacies. Superman is not a legacy, and his story can be told just fine without the JSA existing in his past as an example for him to strive toward. Tying things to WWII is also detrimental and you have to constantly come up with ways for why the original JSA aren't long dead and why their children are as young as they are.

They're in their own world now. That's not working out so well.

I think that has more to do with the writing being bad ever since Robinson left. It actually had promise and was well received when he was still on the title.

[Trey Strain]

I think that has more to do with the writing being bad ever since Robinson left. It actually had promise and was well received when he was still on the title.

There is no evidence that creating a universe for an ongoing title is a viable idea. A viable concept doesn't depend on any particular writer to survive.

[Myskin]

He's the one who ushers in the age of super beings, the Alpha, the ideal, etc.

Why should it be so?
I mean, I agree that Superman should have a prominent role in the DCU, but this should depend on other elements.
For example, I don't know, his skills at making morally difficult choices. His skills at being a man able to respect the individual needs in a particularly chaotic, information-ridden, world. The writers should make Superman important because of what he actively does in real stories, not because he unwillingly was the first in an imaginary timeline. Another real-world example: Martin Luther King wasn't the first man who struggled to have justice. Does this diminish his importance?

The presence of the JSA, along with Superman's diminished power levels in post-Crisis, have contributed to his myth being marginalized.

I do not agree. The JSA didn't even have a series until 1999. The myth of Superman has become marginalized because writers weren't able to create good, credible stories about him anymore.

Why should a vastly more important character like Superman have that status taken away from him for the sake of a bunch of B and C list superheroes and their legacy that didn't even exist until 1986?

Because, if we talk about a DC world, that is a narratively complex universe where lots of different stories take place, Superman is not the only factor which should be taken into account. There are other elements which are equally important. The presence of a past history, for example. Variety. Stories which take place in different timelines with different tones and characters.

But not everyone misses legacy, and its importance has been kind of inflated over the years. Most of DC's major, most popular heroes and villains are not legacies.

There are characters who are legacies, and characters who are not legacies, and both should have a place in a narrative world.

Tying things to WWII is also detrimental and you have to constantly come up with ways for why the original JSA aren't long dead and why their children are as young as they are.

"Constantly"?
If I remember it well, the non-aging situation of the JSA was justified when they said that the JSA lived in some kind of Norse limbo for decades. This idea, which had the same purpose of having Captain America in an ice block for decades, was used just once and that was all. They didn't constantly come up with new ideas. 3-4 of the original members were still alive, the majority was dead and that was all. And quite frankly, I don't remember anyone making a big fuss about, I don't know, Jade and Obsidian who should be older than they really were. I mean, that's not a bigger issue than having Tim Drake never getting older.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I think they work both ways. If you want to preserve Superman's status as the world's first public superhero, it would be best to have them on Earth-2. If that isn't so important to you, have them be the WW2 era heroes who were lost in time after their forced retirement in the 1950s and reappeared a decade or so ago, which gives them time to have full-grown kids, but keeps them young enough to not be full blown senior citizens.

[Myskin]

I think they work both ways. If you want to preserve Superman's status as the world's first public superhero, it would be best to have them on Earth-2. If that isn't so important to you, have them be the WW2 era heroes who were lost in time after their forced retirement in the 1950s and reappeared a decade or so ago, which gives them time to have full-grown kids, but keeps them young enough to not be full blown senior citizens.

As far as I am concerned, some of them could even be senior citizens. I don't think that every single hero should be active or dead.