Should the Justice Society exist in the main DCU?

[Starchild]

I rather have the JSA on the main earth. The main earth is always the center of everything, so most fans dont care what happens on other earths. There's no issue with the JSA being on the same earth as the Justice League and Teen Titans. To say, that the main earth has too many heroes is ridiculous, you can never have too many.

I would just make them time-displaced heroes in the present, so they'll be younger. And no, Superman & JSA shouldnt be the first in existence. That's boring to me and it's something that should be left up in the air.

[colonyofcells]

For prime earth, I prefer a JSA of legacy heroes like jack knight, michael holt, black canary, cyclone, etc.
For multiverse earth 2, I prefer the pre coie earth 2 with superman, batman, ww, terry sloane, etc.

[SiegePerilous02]

There is no evidence that creating a universe for an ongoing title is a viable idea. A viable concept doesn't depend on any particular writer to survive.

It seems to work fine for various manga and independent properties, and also worked well pre-Crisis for the JSA. While a viable concept doesn't rely on one particular writer to survive, it doesn't preclude a lousy writer/editorial direction from driving it into the ground either.

Why should it be so?
I mean, I agree that Superman should have a prominent role in the DCU, but this should depend on other elements.
For example, I don't know, his skills at making morally difficult choices. His skills at being a man able to respect the individual needs in a particularly chaotic, information-ridden, world. The writers should make Superman important because of what he actively does in real stories, not because he unwillingly was the first in an imaginary timeline. Another real-world example: Martin Luther King wasn't the first man who struggled to have justice. Does this diminish his importance?

Why shouldn't it be so? That was his status from 1938 until 1986, there was no reason to change it for the benefit of much less popular characters. All the elements you mentioned are important, but so is this one. They all come together to form the myth that is Superman.
The Martin Luther King example doesn't work, because our world is real and not a modern mythology with important marketing gimmicks. Superman being the most powerful and alpha superhero are part of said gimmicks.

I do not agree. The JSA didn't even have a series until 1999. The myth of Superman has become marginalized because writers weren't able to create good, credible stories about him anymore.

It certainly wasn't the only factor, the other things you mentioned certainly did play a part. But I still think being de-powered and just being the latest in a long line of superheroes didn't do Superman any favors and contributed to the overall neutering of the character.

Because, if we talk about a DC world, that is a narratively complex universe where lots of different stories take place, Superman is not the only factor which should be taken into account. There are other elements which are equally important. The presence of a past history, for example. Variety. Stories which take place in different timelines with different tones and characters.

Of course there are stories that take place in the DC universe's past, but they don't have to revolve around superheroes. Jonah Hex, the Blackhawks in WWII, the pre-Alec Hollland plant elementals, and other supernatural figures who lurked in the shadows can all have stories that contribute to the dense history and wide variety of stories of the DCU. And then the superhero aspects can come into play with Superman's introduction.

There are characters who are legacies, and characters who are not legacies, and both should have a place in a narrative world.

Not necessarily. Some characters become superfluous, and it weakens the narrative to have them around. Having, say, 5-6 Robins in his history does nothing for Batman and actually makes things more complicated than they need to be.

And quite frankly, I don't remember anyone making a big fuss about, I don't know, Jade and Obsidian who should be older than they really were. I mean, that's not a bigger issue than having Tim Drake never getting older.

Tim Drake and his family aren't tied to a specific event in history the way the JSA and their kids are linked to WWII. Him not aging isn't as noticeable as Jade and Obsidian. Their father fought in WWII, which was in the 1940s and there is no way around it, while his kids are in their 20s in the 21st Century.

[Jim Kelly]

I can't really get behind any of the options, for the simple reason I don't trust DC. It would be nice to have the old Earth-Two back--but DC is bound to screw around with that. I don't really like all the continuity confusion that comes from the JSA being on the same Earth as the JLA--however, I don't think Supeman has to be the first on his Earth.

The old Earth-One had heroes who were around during WW II--and even earlier--at least before Roy Thomas monkeyed around with that. I think it's a good idea that Wonder Woman has been around for decades, before Superman appears on the scene--and it makes sense for Martian Manhunter to come to Earth in the 1950s.

Maybe Superman coming out in the open and making himself known to the world is the big event that allows all these mystery men and women, who have been around for decades, to stop working in secret.

Those heroes don't have to form the Justice Society on the main Earth--but that Earth's super-hero history shouldn't begin five years ago.

If the Earth-Two that was the "Golden Age" and the All-Star Squadron could be brought back--using as much original continuity as possible--that would be the ideal. I don't see it happening.

[colonyofcells]

For prime earth, the jsa does not need to be from world war 2 but the jsa just needs to be before Superman which was the continuity used in the Smallville tv show. Alan Scott just needs to be older than Superman and Alan Scott just needs to be old enough to have kids like Jade and Obsidian. For the prime earth JSA, I prefer Jade and Obsidian with Alan Scott being retired or dead.

[CaptCleghorn]

To the people who say to keep them in their own world and no place else:

That didn't sell. The market didn't support it.

So what are you saying here? That they should just go away because you don't want to see them any other way?

That's not a serious proposal.

The vast majority of us are not making serious proposals for series to DC. We're talking about which characters in capes we'd like to see flying around.

[Trey Strain]

I really don't care one way or another about Superman being the first super-hero. Anyway the promos have said that it'll be explained why nobody remembers the JSA.

[Myskin]

Why shouldn't it be so?

Because at one point, for a variety of reasons, the concept of legacy had become particularly important in the DCU. They saw that they could create a lot of good stories which revolved around it - and in fact, a TONS of good and sometimes exceptionally good stories were created about it - and legacy had become a thing within the DCU.
That's the whole point. Superman is not the only factor which should be taken into account when you deal with a whole narrative universe. If writers want to sweep the whole concept under the rug, fine, but at that point they will have to deal with a simplified DCU and - if they don't replace the concept of legacy with something which is just as important - the narrative world they will deal with will be simply impoverished. That's exactly what happened in the New52.

The Martin Luther King example doesn't work, because our world is real and not a modern mythology with important marketing gimmicks. Superman being the most powerful and alpha superhero are part of said gimmicks.

You are overestimating the importance of Superman as the first superhero (and even the most physically powerful one, quite frankly). There inner factors and outer factors to make a character relevant. The inner factors concern the depiction of the character, the complexity, the world he/she lives in. The outer factors are independent from the creative force behind the character. Superman being the first superhero IMHO is simply a outer factor. It doesn't make him more important than him being a Lord, or a blue blood.

By the way, now that I think about that, I really can't remember relevant stories about Superman being the first superhero and the most "inspirational" one. I mean, there isn't any major superhero who was inspired by Superman. Batman, Wonder Woman, GL, and so on, decided to become superheroes because of individual choices. Of course, Superman has his own super-family, but every superhero has a bat-family, or a WW-family. Quite frankly, the only exception which comes to my mind is the Legion of Superheroes. But a lot of superheroes created individual supergroups, too.

I think that the overemphasizing the importance of Supes as the first superhero is just a way to balance the inferiority complex the character has developed towards other, better developed character. Let's take Batman. Batman was never the first superhero (well, until the New52 I think). But in the latest 3 decades he has been so well-developed, so interesting, and his universe is so rich and full of characters that the date he debuted in is completely irrelevant. I am 100% sure that, if Superman was in the same situation of Batman right now, him being the first superhero wouldn't be such a big issue.

Not necessarily. Some characters become superfluous, and it weakens the narrative to have them around. Having, say, 5-6 Robins in his history does nothing for Batman and actually makes things more complicated than they need to be.

There are character who are superfluous, and character who are so interesting and well developed that getting rid of them would be simply silly. Some of these characters are based on the concept of legacy.

Tim Drake and his family aren't tied to a specific event in history the way the JSA and their kids are linked to WWII. Him not aging isn't as noticeable as Jade and Obsidian.

I repeat it. As far as I remember, nobody really made a big issue of Jade being older than she appears to be.

[Trey Strain]

I rather have the JSA on the main earth. The main earth is always the center of everything, so most fans dont care what happens on other earths. There's no issue with the JSA being on the same earth as the Justice League and Teen Titans. To say, that the main earth has too many heroes is ridiculous, you can never have too many.

I would just make them time-displaced heroes in the present, so they'll be younger. And no, Superman & JSA shouldnt be the first in existence. That's boring to me and it's something that should be left up in the air.

That was well said.

[Jadeb]

Because at one point, for a variety of reasons, the concept of legacy had become particularly important in the DCU. They saw that they could create a lot of good stories which revolved around it - and in fact, a TONS of good and sometimes exceptionally good stories were created about it - and legacy had become a thing within the DCU.
That's the whole point. Superman is not the only factor which should be taken into account when you deal with a whole narrative universe. If writers want to sweep the whole concept under the rug, fine, but at that point they will have to deal with a simplified DCU and - if they don't replace the concept of legacy with something which is just as important - the narrative world they will deal with will be simply impoverished. That's exactly what happened in the New52.


You are overestimating the importance of Superman as the first superhero (and even the most physically powerful one, quite frankly). There inner factors and outer factors to make a character relevant. The inner factors concern the depiction of the character, the complexity, the world he/she lives in. The outer factors are independent from the creative force behind the character. Superman being the first superhero IMHO is simply a outer factor. It doesn't make him more important than him being a Lord, or a blue blood.

By the way, now that I think about that, I really can't remember relevant stories about Superman being the first superhero and the most "inspirational" one. I mean, there isn't any major superhero who was inspired by Superman. Batman, Wonder Woman, GL, and so on, decided to become superheroes because of individual choices. Of course, Superman has his own super-family, but every superhero has a bat-family, or a WW-family. Quite frankly, the only exception which comes to my mind is the Legion of Superheroes. But a lot of superheroes created individual supergroups, too.

I think that the overemphasizing the importance of Supes as the first superhero is just a way to balance the inferiority complex the character has developed towards other, better developed character. Let's take Batman. Batman was never the first superhero (well, until the New52 I think). But in the latest 3 decades he has been so well-developed, so interesting, and his universe is so rich and full of characters that the date he debuted in is completely irrelevant. I am 100% sure that, if Superman was in the same situation of Batman right now, him being the first superhero wouldn't be such a big issue.


There are character who are superfluous, and character who are so interesting and well developed that getting rid of them would be simply silly. Some of these characters are based on the concept of legacy.


I repeat it. As far as I remember, nobody really made a big issue of Jade being older than she appears to be.

This was a great post.

If you buy the notion that there can be too many superheroes, DC should stop creating new ones, and that seems like a rather sad idea. In that case, Wildstorm definitely shouldn't have been added.

[Pat]

When Justice Society of America is mentioned I cannot think in other than the classic version.

[The Darknight Detective]

Because at one point, for a variety of reasons, the concept of legacy had become particularly important in the DCU. .

Right. In fact, legacy characters were a big part of the Bronze Age JSA without creating Clutter Earth.

[CaptCleghorn]

If you buy the notion that there can be too many superheroes, DC should stop creating new ones, and that seems like a rather sad idea. In that case, Wildstorm definitely shouldn't have been added.

The Clutter-Earth notion arose not from too many heroes, but too many heroes repeating purposes and not having their own individuality. Infinity, Inc did great before crisis, but after Crisis, bringing it onto the main Earth and removing the JSA turned them into Titans 2.0. Superman, Shazam, Apollo. Each is/was the most physically powerful on their individual earths, but on the same planet, three flying bricks.

Pre-Flashpoint, the JSA was the older group mentoring a younger generation, many of who were directly affiliated with them. As heroes in their prime on nuEarth 2, they were basically an alternate JLA. James Robinson tried to bring some nostalgia into the series, but after he and DC parted ways, DC tried the Earth 2 theme of the month. As much as folks hated the latest direction of rebuilding a planet, it did serve to differentiate this book for another JL clone.

You can have as many heroes and teams as you want on a planet, but IMO, they need to have a reason to be there that's not met by some other book.

[Myskin]

Right. In fact, legacy characters were a big part of the Bronze Age JSA without creating Clutter Earth.

And when they created Clutter Earth, even some of the major superheroes could take advantage of the concept of legacy. For example, The Flash.

[Myskin]

If you buy the notion that there can be too many superheroes, DC should stop creating new ones, and that seems like a rather sad idea. In that case, Wildstorm definitely shouldn't have been added.

Well, quite frankly I don't think that DCU really benefitted from the addition of Wildstorm characters. Or even better, I don't think that Wildstorm characters really benefitted from the inclusion in the DCU. Tonally speaking, they were too different from classic DCU heroes and the writers weren't able to find a compromise which could do justice to them.

What I find it funny, though, is that even the Wildstorm universe had a lot of important heroes who operated during the 1930s, WWII or later, and contemporary heroes who represented their legacy. In fact, now that I think about it, almost every major superhero universe has incorporated the concept of legacy heroes. There isn't any real reason for DCU to dismiss the concept.