Warning: REBIRTH Spoilers

[NYCER]

Destruction from the Jiminez run was pretty much a twin sister too. She was made by the same clay Diana was around the same time.

If we're looking for precedents, then there's also John Byrne's retconned origin for Donna Troy where she was a splinter of Diana's soul. A magical twin so to speak courtesy of that Amazon sorceress Magala.

[numberthirty]

An entire story line? No.

An element of a story line? It looks that way to me.

It's possible that Johns is responsible for the basic idea, but Rucka may be allowed to implement it as he sees fit.

Exactly. "Lies" figures largely in the title of the story lines, and it doesn't have anything to do with the setup during that Justice League story?

Possible, but not likely.

[Pinsir]

If we're looking for precedents, then there's also John Byrne's retconned origin for Donna Troy where she was a splinter of Diana's soul. A magical twin so to speak courtesy of that Amazon sorceress Magala.

Yeah that too, Grail is pretty similar too. Though I think they were cousins or something though.

[Awonder]

But look - let's give DC the benefit of the doubt for a second... I don't think they're trying to screw her, or totally reinvent her...

I think Rucka, Scott and Sharp deserve some benefit of the doubt here. But, DC? No. Not at all. I doubt that they have a conscious intent to "screw her," but their track record - from Amazons Attack to rape pirate baby sellers, etc - deserves not only doubt but contempt. DC leadership has not been wonderful to WW's female family members.

When we got Diana as Zeus's daughter, there was a huge outcry and insistence that this was a sign that Diana would be upstaged by a man, that her importance would be tied to her father, but ultimately, Zeus was almost entirely absent. Diana's feelings about her parentage revolved around her feelings about her mother's betrayal and her new family. She really didn't seem to care about Zeus, and his space in the narrative was being reincarnated as a baby to be raised by women in a very politically pointed way.

Likewise, Azzarello's comment that she needed some men in her supporting cast was seen as a sign that Lennox might upstage her, but again, he remained in a firmly supporting role and eventually died for the cause.

Zeus didn't appear physically on the page very much, but the entire three year run centered around him. Diana cared much more for her mother, but the story didn't; the entire thing was dad's - not mom's - plan for her to take a place in dad's family. It's a very patriarchal narrative that trampled all over the previous female-centric story WW was intended to be.

Like Lennox, I doubt Wonder Twin will upstage Diana, but I can think of a long list of existing WW characters (both male and female) I would rather get the page time over Yet Another Retcon Boy.

I'm a woman, and I'm a feminist, and I absolutely and strenuously want Diana to remain an explicitly feminist character. But there's something very second-wave about gender segregation. So while I agree that it's impossible to separate this from the baseline misogyny of our world, and while I agree that it's painful that Donna and Cassie haven't broken out in the way the Robins or Supergirl or Superboy have, I also...kind of agree with Azzarello. As long as her spinoff characters are exclusively female, there's an element of ghettoisation there.

She needs male supporting characters not because she needs men to be interesting, but because not having them sends a message of limitation. That she's in the "women's league". One of the problems with comics characters generally is the way that all the most popular characters are decades old and new characters almost always need some sort of relationship to an established character to thrive. Wonder Woman is one of the only female characters not spun off from a guy character.

The WW story has ALWAYS had male supporting characters. From the very beginning, it did a better job with men than comics like Batman did with women.

I'm the first to say that the creative team has the potential to make me eat all of my critical words here; but, I have a hard time imagining how Winder Twin isn't going to be some stupid stereotype stigma of strong women irrationally rejecting the innocent victimized male, akin to Azzarello's Amazon boys. Segregation may be second-wave and could use some modernization, but there are much better ways to go about it than vilifying women (eg, Hippoltya tossing out Wonder Twin just because he's a boy).

So, while, for now, I'm against the Wonder Twin idea, that's not to say I'm against male supporting characters. I would much prefer they move forward and/or make better use of existing WW charcters. For instance, the new Ms. Marvel did not need to be Carol's long lost sister to be successful. WW doesn't need (another) brother any more than Batgirl needs to be Bruce's sister.

[Awonder]

I too could use a break from Themyscira and its various problems, but I think it should be a more frequent setting than Smallville. And it definitely shouldn't be a Krypton, which never appears outside of flashbacks.

Even going all the way back to Marston, Diana visited her mother and the Amazons in many stories. So there's precedent for them being part of her core supporting cast.

Sure, Marston had Diana visiting her mother and the Amazons, but how often were those stories about retcons going backwards?

I'm all for more/better exploration about Paradise. It's not her Krypton in the sense that it should only appear in flashbacks; it's her Krytoon in the sense that it's her native culture. It's her Kent farm and Smallville in that it's where she was raised and where she goes home. It can even be a great nexus for some new adventures.

But, WW should be much more than just Paradise. Her leaving home is one of the biggest themes of the character.

So, Yet Another Amazon Boy Retcon Drama? It sounds like they're building on the worst of Azzarello and going in the wrong direction.

Again, I'm not judging the story as a whole; obviously, I haven't read it. My critic is not my final answer, I'm just speaking to the Reborth spoilers. The little tidbits in the story are meant to get potential readers excited to buy each of these new comics. For me, this reveal/change in WW's story is terrible. Maybe it's just my small mind, but I don't see how this can really be a good thing.

[numberthirty]

The little tidbits in the story are meant to get potential readers excited to buy each of these new comics. For me, this reveal/change in WW's story is terrible. Maybe it's just my small mind, but I don't see how this can really be a good thing.

There is also the fact that if "New52' continuity is still in place, we'd have to buy that one slipped past Lennox. Once you start adding it up, it's quite a few potential "negatives" without many "positives".

[Tayswift]

I think Rucka, Scott and Sharp deserve some benefit of the doubt here. But, DC? No. Not at all. I doubt that they have a conscious intent to "screw her," but their track record - from Amazons Attack to rape pirate baby sellers, etc - deserves not only doubt but contempt. DC leadership has not been wonderful to WW's female family members.

agree, DC has been letting down a lot of readers and not only WW fans. it is systemic and repetitive

Zeus didn't appear physically on the page very much, but the entire three year run centered around him. Diana cared much more for her mother, but the story didn't; the entire thing was dad's - not mom's - plan for her to take a place in dad's family. It's a very patriarchal narrative that trampled all over the previous female-centric story WW was intended to be.

Like Lennox, I doubt Wonder Twin will upstage Diana, but I can think of a long list of existing WW characters (both male and female) I would rather get the page time over Yet Another Retcon Boy.

exactly, it was all a plan from Zeus to make WW assume a role he wanted and he get back to power without suffering any consequence (even if he came back as a baby,he still zeus and powerful). Nothing more patriarcal than this.

The WW story has ALWAYS had male supporting characters. From the very beginning, it did a better job with men than comics like Batman did with women.

I'm the first to say that the creative team has the potential to make me eat all of my critical words here; but, I have a hard time imagining how Winder Twin isn't going to be some stupid stereotype stigma of strong women irrationally rejecting the innocent victimized male, akin to Azzarello's Amazon boys. Segregation may be second-wave and could use some modernization, but there are much better ways to go about it than vilifying women (eg, Hippoltya tossing out Wonder Twin just because he's a boy).

So, while, for now, I'm against the Wonder Twin idea, that's not to say I'm against male supporting characters. I would much prefer they move forward and/or make better use of existing WW charcters. For instance, the new Ms. Marvel did not need to be Carol's long lost sister to be successful. WW doesn't need (another) brother any more than Batgirl needs to be Bruce's sister.

you will see that female lead media do better with men as supporting characters than male lead media do with female supporting characters. there is few exceptions.

I don't see why she need more men when comics is dominated by men. I hope Rucka will say this is a lie or at least find a way to not vilify more hipolyta and the amazons. they should be feminist icons and not feminazi.

it is weird that captain marvel already has a female successful spin off character with solo. donna and cassie were on TT teams but never had a solo ongoing. I don't think cassie is in any book post rebirth, this could be a chance to re-intro her with a new spin.

I really don't see how the twin bro will benefit the WW character...it seems pure shock value

There is also the fact that if "New52' continuity is still in place, we'd have to buy that one slipped past Lennox. Once you start adding it up, it's quite a few potential "negatives" without many "positives".

It also got past hera, the other brother who sees everything and the other sister that hears everything. so WTH

[NYCER]

Screw this: DC should just rename Diana "Jayna" and this Jason "Zan." Ugh!

[Rig]

This is an interesting surprise although I think it's way to soon to say if this is for the better or for the worst but what i don't understand is those who are ok with Diana having a father now(Zues) not being ok with her also having a brother. Someone please explain that to me.

You sure about that? Most of people hating on this idea don't like new 52.

[kidhero1000]

"Geoff, give me some ideas! We're losing sales!"

"OK, bring Wally back."

"Bring the Legion back."

"OK, cool, what else?"

"Give Wonder Woman a twin."

"Geoff."

"You know how Marvel has the Watcher? How about we make the Watchmen canon?"

"GEOFF."

"Three Jokers."

"..."

[SiegePerilous02]

Exactly. "Lies" figures largely in the title of the story lines, and it doesn't have anything to do with the setup during that Justice League story?

Possible, but not likely.

Yeah, he's totally gonna be in "Lies" if anything. But somehow, that also includes Steve getting lost in the jungles of Urzkartaga. So I don't expect him to dominate the proceedings that much.

There is also the fact that if "New52' continuity is still in place, we'd have to buy that one slipped past Lennox. Once you start adding it up, it's quite a few potential "negatives" without many "positives".

Are we so certain of that? By all accounts, things aren't playing out the exact same way anymore. Hippolyta being brunette again is a dead giveaway, and Diana went from being the youngest of her modern demigod siblings to now being the oldest if she's been living on the island for thousands of years. That means the raids are likely also out, unless Diana just never noticed what went on during them. The Gods also seem to look different, though that can be fanwanked away as being due to them appearing as whatever they feel like.

If Lennox, Siracca and Milan even exist anymore or are featured, it's not like any of them are infallible. And the birth of the twins took place waaaaaaay before any of them were born anyway.

Sure, Marston had Diana visiting her mother and the Amazons, but how often were those stories about retcons going backwards?

I'm all for more/better exploration about Paradise. It's not her Krypton in the sense that it should only appear in flashbacks; it's her Krytoon in the sense that it's her native culture. It's her Kent farm and Smallville in that it's where she was raised and where she goes home. It can even be a great nexus for some new adventures.

But, WW should be much more than just Paradise. Her leaving home is one of the biggest themes of the character.

Preaching to the choir here, especially about that last part. I'd much rather have Diana travel to space and help Queen Desira fight Eviless for an arc than have her travel back to the Amazons and help sort out whatever tedious BS they're going through this month.

But even with Smallville, Clark mostly featured in it in flashback stories back in the Silver Age, with the frequent home visits being more of a modern thing. But Diana's been visiting home and bringing the Holliday Girls with her since her first years of publication, and her villains were on Reformation Island. I just don't think equating Paradise Island to anything from Superman's mythos really works.

So, Yet Another Amazon Boy Retcon Drama? It sounds like they're building on the worst of Azzarello and going in the wrong direction.

Again, I'm not judging the story as a whole; obviously, I haven't read it. My critic is not my final answer, I'm just speaking to the Reborth spoilers. The little tidbits in the story are meant to get potential readers excited to buy each of these new comics. For me, this reveal/change in WW's story is terrible. Maybe it's just my small mind, but I don't see how this can really be a good thing.

If they're doing what I think they're doing and either getting rid of the raids altogether or changing their nature, I don't think their heeding the worst aspects of Azzarello's run. Both Hippolyta and Zeus are featured on the cover, so I'm willing to wait to see if Rucka gives both parents equal page time and importance, or even puts the narrative importance firmly on Hippolyta.

I'm also not sure if Hippolyta will discard her son for being male. Maybe they'll take a page from the tales of "Nubia, My Long Lost Twin Sister. Who is Also Black." and have the child stolen by Ares? The God of War is predominantly featured on the cover of #1, drawn by Liam Sharp, who is the artist for "the Lies." Can't be a coincidence.

I actually don't see how the idea of giving her a retcon brother is inherently a bad thing. It turned out ok with Lennox and Milan, and with a writer I mostly trust on board, I think we should all give it a chance before running for the hills. But I am still hoping for Donna to get her pre-Crisis origin and to get some page time with Rucka. Maybe in "Year One." It may even be cool to see Diana's adopted sibling interact with her natural one.

[Dr. Poison]

You sure about that? Most of people hating on this idea don't like new 52.

I can understand the mindset of those who didn't like the Zeus-daddy change. It's bringing more men into a feminist icon's mythology and saying while it's ok for her to have a father, it's not ok for her to have a twin brother.

[toastedbread]

I think Rucka, Scott and Sharp deserve some benefit of the doubt here. But, DC? No. Not at all. I doubt that they have a conscious intent to "screw her," but their track record - from Amazons Attack to rape pirate baby sellers, etc - deserves not only doubt but contempt. DC leadership has not been wonderful to WW's female family members.

And DC went out of their way and apparently made some large accommodations in order to get Rucka back and writing her, including completely changing her editorial team.

"DC" is not some monolithic entity, it's a collection of individuals who make good decisions and terrible decisions and who may, fundamentally, have a different view of certain characters than I - or you - do. But it's pretty clear that DC Rebirth is an attempt to acknowledge and give space to some of the fan complaints about the New 52 in terms of tone and the loss of legacies. It's an attempt to win back good will, and one of the things they're doing with regards to Wonder Woman is going all out and making accommodations to get a fan-favourite and trusted writer back on her book.

I'm not about to make any predictions about whether or not this will work. We'll have to wait and see. But right now, we have one, contextless plot twist, and a fairly well-detailed (from Rucka's side) commitment to getting him on board, as well as consistently putting her front and centre of it's BvS marketing and prioritising her movie. Like, I think it's reasonable to say that DC are making a concerted effort to support her as a character right now and if "no, add more men!" was their priority, they wouldn't have hired Rucka.

I'm not saying you have to change your opinion of the way you feel they have been treating her, or - even if you agree that there's a shift - whether you feel it's reasonable to wait and see if it sticks. That's fine. I just think it's reasonable to put out - as devil's advocate - that there seems to be a conscious and public attempt at course correction here, both for Wonder Woman and for the line in general.

Zeus didn't appear physically on the page very much, but the entire three year run centered around him. Diana cared much more for her mother, but the story didn't; the entire thing was dad's - not mom's - plan for her to take a place in dad's family. It's a very patriarchal narrative that trampled all over the previous female-centric story WW was intended to be.

Here we disagree. He set the story in motion but while Diana's emotional journey involved meeting and forming relationships with her newly recognised family, she spent absolutely none of that time angsting about her father or seeming to want any kind of relationship with him (or being sad about he relationship she did not have with him). Even after Zeus returned, it's clear that Diana considered Zeke a separate entity, and inasmuch as they were the same, a huge part of the point was that Zeus was a misogynist jerk who was largely responsible for Hera's bitterness. By ending it - at least as Azzarello ended the series - with Zeke being raised by women, the clear implication to me was that this would be corrective to his behaviour. He would grow up a better person.

I don't know that I'd categorise it as Zeus' plan for Diana to take her place in "his" family, but it was certainly Zeus' plan to avoid consequences. And he didn't. Because he ended up reincarnated into a situation designed to fundamentally change and correct his misogyny through love and acceptance. But without putting him in a position of power over the women around him, because they became his parents.

Like Lennox, I doubt Wonder Twin will upstage Diana, but I can think of a long list of existing WW characters (both male and female) I would rather get the page time over Yet Another Retcon Boy.

Sure, this isn't something I particularly wanted either. But I ended up quite enjoying Lennox, so I'm willing to see how this goes too, even if it's not where I'd put the focus as my first choice.

The WW story has ALWAYS had male supporting characters. From the very beginning, it did a better job with men than comics like Batman did with women.

Again, agreed, but I'm specifically talking about superhero spin-off characters. I mean, again to be clear, I'm not advocating it would have to be her brother. I think there are a lot of potential issues there and places it could be done wrong. But, like the way Jiminez originally wanted to introduce Wonder Boy, I think something like that could be really powerful. Batman, Superman, Aquaman - they have heroic sidekicks and spin-off characters of both genders. Wonder Woman has Donna Troy and Cassie and that's about it. Considering her status in the DCU she has a dearth of spin-off heroes (as opposed to supporting cast) anyway, and while this might not be my first choice, I'm all for expanding that and for it to include one or two dudes (but not MORE dudes than women, obvs.)

I'm the first to say that the creative team has the potential to make me eat all of my critical words here; but, I have a hard time imagining how Winder Twin isn't going to be some stupid stereotype stigma of strong women irrationally rejecting the innocent victimized male, akin to Azzarello's Amazon boys. Segregation may be second-wave and could use some modernization, but there are much better ways to go about it than vilifying women (eg, Hippoltya tossing out Wonder Twin just because he's a boy).

Which is a concern I share, but then we come back to my original point: I cannot imagine Rucka writing that. And honestly, the Amazon boys thing is there now, it's out there and we have to wait to see whether it's one of the "Lies". But since it seems unlikely that her origin is getting retconned (because of the twin thing), that would be my top contender for a retcon. Let's also be honest, though, the New 52 isn't the first time the Amazons have been lazily characterised as misandrists (*cough*AmazonsAttack*cough*) and the world kept turning and that didn't turn out to be the prevailing interpretation.

We might have to put up with a Jason who was cast off a cliff by Hippolyta and who's come back to Teach The Amazons A Lesson About Equality with his Strapping Masculinity. And that would be awful in every way.

Or we might get a Hippolyta who his him away with a loving, regular family, and he'll be a damsel-in-distress McGuffin that Diana has to save from the machinations of the Gods, and then she can teach how to be an Amazon, and I'd be like 80% okay with that.

So, while, for now, I'm against the Wonder Twin idea, that's not to say I'm against male supporting characters. I would much prefer they move forward and/or make better use of existing WW charcters. For instance, the new Ms. Marvel did not need to be Carol's long lost sister to be successful. WW doesn't need (another) brother any more than Batgirl needs to be Bruce's sister.

It's cool I don't think you're against male supporting characters and I don't think this is a story that needs to be told either. I just don't think it's quite as likely to be awful as you. Though I concede it could be.

[warzon]

Lol you people slay me.you're suprise that their f--king up diana wonder woman.i'm not it shouldnt suprise you people,that somebody at dc doesnt like our amazing amazon.maybe if she were in the batman family she wouldf be treated with a lil bit more respect and care.and it's not just diana. It's donna.cassie.hippolyta as well,i look forward to the day that the amazong get a writer that has done some research n love the characters as much as we do.hopefully phil jiminez will come back someday.also would love to see nubia make her 52 comeback as well.

[Prime]

I guess Superman's death is really the personal tragedy.