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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Honestly man? I devoured everything from Death-Return to the Cadmus Wars finale in Action 700, and I couldnt point to anything that really stood out because it was all solid quality. At least I thought so at the time; most of those issues I have not pulled out of storage in ten years, so Ive no idea how well they've aged.

    But Action 700 was pretty huge to me; it was a level of destruction porn I had not yet seen (outside of stuff like Zero Hour that was so big it held no meaning) and it resolved subplots that had been going for a few years, as well as wrapping up Lex Luthor's status quo from the time.

    Let's see.....I couldnt tell you issue numbers or trade names, but there was the story where Clark's powers overload beyond his ability to control them....the whole Conduit fiasco.....probably the best of them all was the Bizarro revision, which to this day remains my favorite Bizarro story ever. Well...Pak's stand alone issue might be my new favorite, but its close.

    Kessel's Superboy series was really damn strong for a long time. There was an issue early on (issue 4 I think) that had Superboy's manager producing a Superboy cartoon in the style of the 90's Batman series, which was a lot of fun. PAD's Supergirl was probably one of my favorite titles until around issue 50 when it started to get really weird (like, she-male were-horse angel weird). Steel was a decent book but its best days were also its last, when....I wanna say it was Priest, came on and saw the book to its finale.

    I'd say just start at Death of Superman and keep going until a bad pastiche of a conservative named Dirk Armstrong (or something) joins the Planet. When that guy shows up it heralds the beginning of the downfall, as the supporting cast begin to crowd Superman out of his own books and the creative teams start to run out of ideas, which lead to the Electric Superman saga and the Red/Blue redux.
    You just made me realize something weird.

    At the present moment we are dealing with a bunch of alternate versions of Superman who are fighting to become the "official" one. Right?

    So... Haven't we already seen something similar?
    http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads...1-superman.jpg
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-t_hG9FPigq...0/Reign518.jpg

    At the end of the Jurgens era, there were at least two or three crossovers which focused on alternate versions of Superman in the same continuity. In at least one of those occasions the main villain was Dominus (a completely forgotten character - many people hated him but I still like the design a lot, it's weird and surreal) and in another one some kind of alien telepath named Cogito (I never read that story, though).

    The weird thing is that that period was the last straw before the end of the Jurgens era. The super Morrison/Waid/Millar/Peyer team should have followed, but everything fell apart and we had the Loeb/Kelly run (which I still like a lot, it was full of good ideas for the most part even if they weren't implemented successfully).

    Somehow, I got the impression that we just went back to the past.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  2. #62
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Honestly man? I devoured everything from Death-Return to the Cadmus Wars finale in Action 700, and I couldnt point to anything that really stood out because it was all solid quality. At least I thought so at the time; most of those issues I have not pulled out of storage in ten years, so Ive no idea how well they've aged.

    But Action 700 was pretty huge to me; it was a level of destruction porn I had not yet seen (outside of stuff like Zero Hour that was so big it held no meaning) and it resolved subplots that had been going for a few years, as well as wrapping up Lex Luthor's status quo from the time.

    Let's see.....I couldnt tell you issue numbers or trade names, but there was the story where Clark's powers overload beyond his ability to control them....the whole Conduit fiasco.....probably the best of them all was the Bizarro revision, which to this day remains my favorite Bizarro story ever. Well...Pak's stand alone issue might be my new favorite, but its close.

    Kessel's Superboy series was really damn strong for a long time. There was an issue early on (issue 4 I think) that had Superboy's manager producing a Superboy cartoon in the style of the 90's Batman series, which was a lot of fun. PAD's Supergirl was probably one of my favorite titles until around issue 50 when it started to get really weird (like, she-male were-horse angel weird). Steel was a decent book but its best days were also its last, when....I wanna say it was Priest, came on and saw the book to its finale.

    I'd say just start at Death of Superman and keep going until a bad pastiche of a conservative named Dirk Armstrong (or something) joins the Planet. When that guy shows up it heralds the beginning of the downfall, as the supporting cast begin to crowd Superman out of his own books and the creative teams start to run out of ideas, which lead to the Electric Superman saga and the Red/Blue redux.
    Thanks man!

    I'm well caught up on Superboy (we were born the same year so I felt obligated lol)

    I'm just now reading Final Night and I'm REALLY into it. It gives me that same cohesive feel that Identity Crisis did, and that's still one of my all time favorites. I'm also thinking of picking up the Electric Superman saga. I've always heard how much it sucks, but I've also always thought that the idea behind it was really interesting if given proper context. It's more a research mission I guess lol

    But I'm gonna give your suggestions a try. I've already read Death and Return (the aftermath from Death was actually really interesting) and down to read everything else.

  3. #63
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    The more I think about the "Its not a reboot...and it never was" tagline the more it pisses me off. Because we know now what they're saying, they're saying the New 52 was never intended to be a reboot. And that's complete bullshit. You're changing your minds and trying to make it look like its not a reboot, but everyone and their mother knows that it was, and you guys are just backpedaling. You don't have to come out and humiliate yourself and say "Hey we screwed up and we're all idiots", but don't insult my intelligence either. Retcon all you want in the narrative. But don't try and peddle some master plan and pretend you're NOT massively retconning out the original intent. Maybe you get away with that in the days before instant information and when a tighter lid was kept on things. But those days are long gone, so trying to be coy today does nothing but lose you credibility and trust.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 05-22-2016 at 03:29 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Thanks man!

    I'm well caught up on Superboy (we were born the same year so I felt obligated lol)

    I'm just now reading Final Night and I'm REALLY into it. It gives me that same cohesive feel that Identity Crisis did, and that's still one of my all time favorites. I'm also thinking of picking up the Electric Superman saga. I've always heard how much it sucks, but I've also always thought that the idea behind it was really interesting if given proper context. It's more a research mission I guess lol

    But I'm gonna give your suggestions a try. I've already read Death and Return (the aftermath from Death was actually really interesting) and down to read everything else.

    I love the damn 90's,thats when i got into comics,and thats where they were the most fun imo.

    Kesel superboy,the triangle superman books,and so much more,the 90's were fun,to bad it gets a bad wrap,course i think its from those that think they are to smart for the crazy shit we read back then...whatever.

  5. #65
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    This spells it out pretty easily.

    Now which superman is the real deal,the unaltered one or the new one.

    The universes might be the same,besides a shitload of changes,but the supermen are different,divergent paths from convergence on.

  6. #66
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    I second Ascended's Post Crisis recommendations, although I would add the Dominus storyarc that spun out of Superman Forever. Can't quite remember the issue #'s but it was a great tribute to Supes past. Each book for 3 months did a tribute story to the past,one was doing a golden age inspired tale, another a silver age tale, another the bronze age and another was set in a silver age inspired future. Eventually they all tie together. Its a fun story and the last spark of greatness pre 2000.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  7. #67
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephens2177 View Post


    This spells it out pretty easily.

    Now which superman is the real deal,the unaltered one or the new one.

    The universes might be the same,besides a shitload of changes,but the supermen are different,divergent paths from convergence on.
    This doesn't apply anymore, and is even more proof they have no plan. Because you have the classic JSA in the shadow of the new Earth 2. The suggestion being that Robinson's E2 characters are changed versions of the classic JSA characters. But that's not true since the classic JSA is now coming back to the main Earth. Whatever Convergence was trying to say, it has absolutely no bearing on what they're doing now because they only started pulling this out of their butt sometime late last year, months after Convergence was over and done with.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 05-22-2016 at 03:42 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    This doesn't apply anymore, and is even more proof they have no plan. Because you have the classic JSA in the shadow of the new Earth 2. The suggestion being that Robinson's E2 characters are changed versions of the classic JSA characters. But that's not true since the classic JSA is now coming back to the main Earth. Whatever Convergence was trying to say, it has absolutely no bearing on what they're doing now because they only started pulling this out of their butt sometime late last year, months after Convergence was over and done with.
    Actually convergence was showing how all the multiverse earths got altered into the new versions,i.dont think the whole thing was about just the main earth.so the JSA from earth 2 might have been changed into what that book is now,but it has nothing to do with the JSA from our earth.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truman Burbank View Post
    Because they might be stuck with it, and the most frequent posters here don't like that version of the character. The people who did, from what I can tell, got chased away a long time ago.

    You see it here and there all over the board - how Byrne's reboot was a mistake, how the 2000s were awful, how much better Pre-Crisis is, how much New 52 reminds them of Pre-Crisis, and on and on. If there's any positive mention, it's a token mention of the Triangle Era, but that's usually followed with some sort of qualifier. Very few here take Post-Crisis/Pre-Flashpoint on its own merits.

    And now, there's a chance that this version could be back long-term, so there's another round of the lashing-out reaction.
    post crisis get a lot of hate here, see many digs with that version. I find it unfair since new 52 has big problems and never really worked.

  10. #70
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    I remember the reign of the supermen going right into the superboy series in the 90's,so i will always LOVE the 90's

  11. #71
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I A lot of them have been on my list for years now, but the "ew it's old" stigma was keeping me away, I'm ashamed to say.
    I used to feel the same way. My first foray into old material was an act of desperation, because I couldnt get my Superman fix in the (then) current books. I wish I had come to my senses sooner.

    Oh, another recommendation, if you have a lot of money and luck, is the Kirby-era Jimmy Olsen stuff, and really, all his original New Gods material. I finally hunted down the first omnibus (well actually my wife found it, the wondrous mynx!) and, dude, if you havent, you gotta read that stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tayswift View Post
    post crisis get a lot of hate here, see many digs with that version. I find it unfair since new 52 has big problems and never really worked.
    Well, most of the 52's issues are the result of piss poor and inconsistent writing. He had issues and personality traits I wasnt the biggest fan of, but for the most part good writing would have fixed that. Post-Crisis was an actual and largely objective departure from 50 years of characterization. It wasnt all bad certainly, but it would be sort of like making Spider-Man a billionaire playboy genius businessman; the seeds are *sort of* there, but its still a complete 180 from the norm.

    And yes, I know how ironic it is that I use this particular example right now. Just goes to show that the industry hasnt completely learned from their mistakes (though Im not a big Parker fan so it doesnt bother me at all).

    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    I second Ascended's Post Crisis recommendations, although I would add the Dominus storyarc that spun out of Superman Forever.
    You know, I never finished that story. I was in the same "ew its old" boat Superlad just got out of, and skipped the "alternate past universes" thing. If you liked it, I'll have to hunt it down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Thanks man!

    I'm just now reading Final Night and I'm REALLY into it.
    Dude, Final Night was amazing. And the Electric thing....I think you'll like it. Its not executed as well as it could have been, but (especially with hindsight and two decades between us) it was a lot of fun. We've talked a bit privately about the nature of Superman's powers, I think you'll find that story interesting. Its not like what we've discussed, but it'll get the gears turning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    You just made me realize something weird.

    Somehow, I got the impression that we just went back to the past.
    Oh, we most definitely are doing a Back To The Future.

    Pretty heavy.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  12. #72
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    I second Ascended's Post Crisis recommendations, although I would add the Dominus storyarc that spun out of Superman Forever. Can't quite remember the issue #'s but it was a great tribute to Supes past. Each book for 3 months did a tribute story to the past,one was doing a golden age inspired tale, another a silver age tale, another the bronze age and another was set in a silver age inspired future. Eventually they all tie together. Its a fun story and the last spark of greatness pre 2000.
    Quick look says Adventures #558-561, MoS #80-83, Superman #136-139, and Action #745-748.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperLad93
    What were some of your favorite issues? I just learned Millar had a run on the proper Superman books in the late 90's early 2000's (I think) did you ever check that out?
    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979
    I second Ascended's Post Crisis recommendations, although I would add the Dominus storyarc that spun out of Superman Forever.

    Immonen and Millar was a pretty neat writing team for a bit there.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post


    Well, most of the 52's issues are the result of piss poor and inconsistent writing. He had issues and personality traits I wasnt the biggest fan of, but for the most part good writing would have fixed that. Post-Crisis was an actual and largely objective departure from 50 years of characterization. It wasnt all bad certainly, but it would be sort of like making Spider-Man a billionaire playboy genius businessman; the seeds are *sort of* there, but its still a complete 180 from the norm.

    And yes, I know how ironic it is that I use this particular example right now. Just goes to show that the industry hasnt completely learned from their mistakes (though Im not a big Parker fan so it doesnt bother me at all).
    I don't think post crisis was too much a departure like spider-man being a rich bussiness man. he was still clark kent, from krypton, had the superpowers and worked into the daily planet

    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    I sort of made a similar point in another thread recently.

    People dismiss when I say that the whole situation with the Superman/ Wonder woman romance thing and how they treated Lois in the first year or two of the New 52 was done on purpose to create fan controversy. People don't want to believe their long wished for ship being brought into continuity for the purpose of creating "team clois" and " team cliana" factions battling it out on the web to create buzz in fandom and sales. I often said as soon as DC had tired of this and squeezed as much controversy they could out of the situation, they'd find another target and angle. They did then with having Lois outting Clark and then Clark subsequently becoming a douche nozzle. Once they bled that dry, now they are now trolling fandom again with this whole " which Superman is the 'real' one ?"stuff that the rebirth special is teasing us all with now and looks like they dont intend on giving clear answers anytime soon.

    The New 52 was one long troll and it looks like Rebirth is following suit, at least for Superman. Its quite sad.
    seems like didio and lee think comics are like YA books or soap operas. of course they are wrong. Comics are other media, they can try their cheap controversy all they want, but without substance it just die quick.
    Last edited by Tayswift; 05-22-2016 at 07:59 PM.

  14. #74
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayswift View Post
    I don't think post crisis was too much a departure like spider-man being a rich bussiness man. he was still clark kent, from krypton, had the superpowers and worked into the daily planet
    Spidey is still Peter Parker, from Queens, has the powers, and....far as I know hasn't had a stable job in years, just a string of short-lived careers since leaving the Bugle. But Parker Industries isnt so far off from Horizon Labs, really. Parker's just moved up the corporate ladder. I dont think you can really say that Stark-lite Parker is a big change in the character but post-Crisis wasn't.

    But, as I understand it, you're not that well versed in the older pre-Crisis stuff, so its not surprising you dont see the differences.

    I dont think they were even all that prevalent until Loeb either. The Triangle Era guy was, by and large, still *a* Superman, albeit one far too comfortable among humanity and lacking a necessary degree of "The Other" in his personality. But really, it wasnt such a huge departure that it stuck out too badly. Not like Superman was completely alienated pre-Crisis. Once Loeb came in around 2000 with his run, all traces of Superman disappeared and Clark himself just became a big dumb lovable farmboy. Which in and of itself wasn't in keeping with Clark's traditional characterization. That guy might have come from a farm but was fairly cosmopolitan. Even the Triangle Era got that part right.

    By contrast, the Superdad Jurgens is writing is fairly on point. Solid Triangle Era characterization for the most part, even down to the underhanded and douchey way he lies to Lois and prioritizes around his own desires as often as he can get away with. If the situation were being handled differently, I could happily accept that version of Superman as the main guy. Ive always wanted to see Clark with a kid after all. I just cant accept the pathetic and convoluted way they're doing it.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  15. #75
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    I'm wondering what Morrison thinks of his Superman being swept under the rug.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

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