Do you like that Magneto is no longer the father of Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver?

[Michael Watkins]

That doesn't preclude Red Skull from using her as a tool...

He probably would have succeeded had she not been involved with the first incarnation of the Uncanny Avengers.

he's the villain (a Nazi villain, even). there's only so far they can go with letting him succeed.

[Star_Jammer]

he's the villain (a Nazi villain, even). there's only so far they can go with letting him succeed.

Surely. Wanda would have found a way to beat him.

[Rivka]

I believe Brevoort once said on his Tumblr that that's one of the reasons he supported the retcon. He doesn't like the idea of characters being tied to a particular point in time if they don't have to be, and once Magneto was retconned into being a Holocaust survivor, this created the problem of how to explain the twins still being young.

Which is still just an excuse since this is comic books, and Brevoort has wanted the twins to not be Magneto's children for at least 20 years. There could have been any number of reasons how they could be born in the late 40s or early 50s and not be aged. Magneto being their father was never the issue, since he's been de-aged and his powers cause him to age more slowly. Magda being their mother was the tie to the 1940s and 50s. Their parentage wasn't a problem for Marvel until someone (Perlmutter we're presuming, but others were happy to be his agents) decided that Wanda and Pietro were MCU only, and had to be removed from the X-Men franchise in every way. And none of that explains why they are no longer mutants. In fact, the High Evolutionary put them in stasis soon after their birth, while he searched for suitable foster parents, according to pre-retcon continuity.

Again, Magneto being their father does NOT necessitate them being de-aged. Magda being their mother does. During one of Mr. Brevoort's campaigns against the Magneto parentage in the 1990s, on an old now-defunct message board, I argued with him--I was okay with some reveal that Magda wasn't their mother. I could see Magneto having an affair with another Sinti Roma woman who perhaps reminded him of Magda years later. But Mr. Brevoort wanted it all excised. He didn't want it just changed from 2015 on, leaving the history intact (reality warping on Wanda's part), he and Rick Remender came up with a convoluted mess of a story the sheer purpose of which was to cut Wanda and Pietro off from Magneto and invalidate stories appearing in 35+ years of comics. They also had to make them no longer mutants as per someone's (Perlmutter?) orders--this as some have pointed out, might be the more egregious part of the retcon.

Ironically part of the reason for retconning them into being Magneto's children is that the Whizzer/Miss America retcon fixed them as having been born in the 1940s. And then Claremont changed Magneto's backstory so they had to have been born in the '40s again. Retcons are weird.

John Byrne says he came up with the idea for the retcon, based on the physical resemblance of Pietro to Magneto. Be that as it may, Claremont didn't "change" Magneto's backstory. Magneto had no backstory until Chris Claremont gave him one. According to Dave Cockrum and Chris Claremont, they started putting together the backstory in the spring of 1981. UNCANNY X-MEN #150, where Magneto's Holocaust history is revealed, appeared in September 1981. VISION AND THE SCARLET WITCH vol. 1 #4--which confirmed that Magneto is the father of the twins--is dated Feb. 1983. Bill Mantlo wrote the V&tSW story, Byrne says he came up with the idea. And this was a retcon of Wanda and Pietro's parentage, not their mutancy. There still is no reasonable excuse for saying they are no longer mutants.

[gurkle]

Wow, I didn't know Brevoort had been against them being Magneto's children for so long. (I did know he was against Wanda and Lorna being treated as sisters.) Do you remember what his reasons were?

And yes, the Vision and the Scarlet Witch issue came out after X-Men 150, but they'd already been established as Magneto's children before that, like in X-Men 125, when Byrne drew in Magda and had her look exactly like Wanda (though this was hard to pick up on because Byrne draws everyone with the same face). The letters pages mentioned that Magneto was their father but that neither they or Magneto would know it. That's how Byrne wanted to play it, but the V&SW miniseries had the characters finally find out.

Anyway, as I've said, I could accept this retcon if it led to the twins getting more exposure, but it hasn't, at all. Because of the shared film rights or something else, Wanda is absent from most MCU merchandise, the makers of the Marvel cartoons have said they have no plans to include Scarlet Witch or Quicksilver, and the Avengers office isn't even editing Wanda's solo book. They are, in effect, still being treated almost as badly as mutant characters, so what even was the point of saying they're not mutants? Spite, I suppose.

[Michael Watkins]

Wow, I didn't know Brevoort had been against them being Magneto's children for so long. (I did know he was against Wanda and Lorna being treated as sisters.) Do you remember what his reasons were?

And yes, the Vision and the Scarlet Witch issue came out after X-Men 150, but they'd already been established as Magneto's children before that, like in X-Men 125, when Byrne drew in Magda and had her look exactly like Wanda (though this was hard to pick up on because Byrne draws everyone with the same face). The letters pages mentioned that Magneto was their father but that neither they or Magneto would know it. That's how Byrne wanted to play it, but the V&SW miniseries had the characters finally find out.

Anyway, as I've said, I could accept this retcon if it led to the twins getting more exposure, but it hasn't, at all. Because of the shared film rights or something else, Wanda is absent from most MCU merchandise, the makers of the Marvel cartoons have said they have no plans to include Scarlet Witch or Quicksilver, and the Avengers office isn't even editing Wanda's solo book. They are, in effect, still being treated almost as badly as mutant characters, so what even was the point of saying they're not mutants? Spite, I suppose.

well Wanda has her own book now. that's kind of exposure. hasn't helped Pietro, at all; though.

[Michael Watkins]

Which is still just an excuse since this is comic books, and Brevoort has wanted the twins to not be Magneto's children for at least 20 years. There could have been any number of reasons how they could be born in the late 40s or early 50s and not be aged. Magneto being their father was never the issue, since he's been de-aged and his powers cause him to age more slowly. Magda being their mother was the tie to the 1940s and 50s. Their parentage wasn't a problem for Marvel until someone (Perlmutter we're presuming, but others were happy to be his agents) decided that Wanda and Pietro were MCU only, and had to be removed from the X-Men franchise in every way. And none of that explains why they are no longer mutants. In fact, the High Evolutionary put them in stasis soon after their birth, while he searched for suitable foster parents, according to pre-retcon continuity.

Again, Magneto being their father does NOT necessitate them being de-aged. Magda being their mother does. During one of Mr. Brevoort's campaigns against the Magneto parentage in the 1990s, on an old now-defunct message board, I argued with him--I was okay with some reveal that Magda wasn't their mother. I could see Magneto having an affair with another Sinti Roma woman who perhaps reminded him of Magda years later. But Mr. Brevoort wanted it all excised. He didn't want it just changed from 2015 on, leaving the history intact (reality warping on Wanda's part), he and Rick Remender came up with a convoluted mess of a story the sheer purpose of which was to cut Wanda and Pietro off from Magneto and invalidate stories appearing in 35+ years of comics. They also had to make them no longer mutants as per someone's (Perlmutter?) orders--this as some have pointed out, might be the more egregious part of the retcon.



John Byrne says he came up with the idea for the retcon, based on the physical resemblance of Pietro to Magneto. Be that as it may, Claremont didn't "change" Magneto's backstory. Magneto had no backstory until Chris Claremont gave him one. According to Dave Cockrum and Chris Claremont, they started putting together the backstory in the spring of 1981. UNCANNY X-MEN #150, where Magneto's Holocaust history is revealed, appeared in September 1981. VISION AND THE SCARLET WITCH vol. 1 #4--which confirmed that Magneto is the father of the twins--is dated Feb. 1983. Bill Mantlo wrote the V&tSW story, Byrne says he came up with the idea. And this was a retcon of Wanda and Pietro's parentage, not their mutancy. There still is no reasonable excuse for saying they are no longer mutants.

I know you to be a huge Magneto fan. if Magneto were no longer an option, who would you want the birth parents to be?


on another note, Magneto certainly has more than one child. I can't possibly only be Lorna Dane (I wasn't originally in support of this retcon). and who are Zaladane's parents; anyways? in the Magneto Not a Hero story, it seemed like they were hinting at another child. I could be overthinking it. but this makes it seem like he and Astra had a kid.

[Iron Maiden]

Anyway, as I've said, I could accept this retcon if it led to the twins getting more exposure, but it hasn't, at all. Because of the shared film rights or something else, Wanda is absent from most MCU merchandise, the makers of the Marvel cartoons have said they have no plans to include Scarlet Witch or Quicksilver, and the Avengers office isn't even editing Wanda's solo book. They are, in effect, still being treated almost as badly as mutant characters, so what even was the point of saying they're not mutants? Spite, I suppose.

Not true. I saw a Scarlet Witch legends figure in the stores last year and she has a Legends Civil War figure in Wave 3. So that's both a classic MU Wanda and MCU Wanda I've seen recently. Marvel is always a bit wishy washy about marketing action figures for the female characters though they are getting better. I have also seen recently was sthe female White Tiger and of course a Black Widow one. Even she isn't marketed as much as she should be. I have seen her in group Avengers T-shirts but in the store but you have to go online to find a lot of Wanda's. The WeLoveFine company, who sometimes have merch in big box stores, has a lot of Scarlet Witch T-shirts based on the wonderful covers from her solo series at their online story. They also have shirts featuring Spider-Gwen, Ms Marvel, Captain Marvel, etc. There was never a lot for little girls but I've noticed the local Kohl's had a section called Her Marvel and there were some girls T-shirts I got for my 10 year old nieces this summer (they have a brother and are from a set of triplets)

Check out this set of shirts for We Love Fine Marvel Cover Week, I bought my Doom on a Unicorn shirt from them

Here's an Avengers Girls Youth T-shirt they have. Might get that for my nieces

Here is the news story from February about Wanda's Civil War Action figure There's also an Enchantress figure that if I were a kid again, I'd love to get myself. I might try and look for one anyway!

The MU Wanda Legends figure is part of the Maidens of Might and its part of a Build a Figure set where if you get all of them, you can build Odin.

[jmc247]

Not true. I saw a Scarlet Witch legends figure in the stores last year and she has a Legends Civil War figure in Wave 3. So that's both a classic MU Wanda and MCU Wanda I've seen recently.

That is because their contract of who they make action figures of was written before relations between Marvel and Fox went completely down the drain. It's why they are putting out a Polaris action figure this year who is entirely owned in terms of movie rights by Fox studios as there is no restrictions on that companies contract for type of Marvel characters they can create.

http://marveltoynews.com/sdcc-marvel...laris-warlock/

When they are forced to renegotiate the terms of the contract that is when studio politics may come into play and their contract may end up looking like the more recient ones that are only allowed to use MCU characters that don't have joint rights with Fox.

Also, you missed the part on the webpage you linked to where that t-shirt was designed by Steevin a fan, these are not the shirts fans will go to Walmart or any store to buy.

[jmc247]

Magneto, Wanda, Pietro and Lorna were the most interesting family in the Marvel Universe and now I care about all of them a whole lot less.

I feel the same, they were the most interesting family and the retcon damaged all of them. It's not even as simple as say Quicksilver being one of Lorna's closest relationships over many years and now being gone. It's taken away part of both characters. It's taken away part of Wanda as well and Luna and Billy and Wiccan and yes most certainly Magneto.

Families are like a unit where one is hurting they all hurt and when one dies the unit is damaged. But, this is even worse then a character dying, it's basically saying they were never related in the first place and their past stories together and interaction was all lies.

In the real world even if two people found out they were switched at birth it wouldn't change their past relationships going back many years, but this it's the comics so writers aren't going to touch the former family interacting until the retcon comes down.

Irked by all aspects of this plot line. I mean when Wanda first hit (olden days!) she was just this woman who fought using ridiculous incidents. It's hard to take her seriously when the scariest thing she can do is make a guy trip over his shoelace or maybe distract him with a bare ankle. She didn't do much to impress me in the 90's/00s either. As times changed and heroes and villains power levels got upped though, mutants started getting more powerful and Wanda was one that blew me away with what she became. There's a fair few people in the marvel universe who could literally F%$K the world over and I think only about 10 or so of them are mutants.

Before Secret Invasion there were only a few things stopping the skrulls from invading. One of them was Wanda. They were actually terrified of her and this was before House of M. Regardless of where her power comes from she was not only one of the most dangerous people on earth, she was a mutant. Then House of M happened and as controversial as that story was, it was a MUTANT who had the power to recreate the entire universe in her image. It blew my mind and I felt like on a power scale, the story put mutants on the map almost as much as it took them off it.

Then the retcons happened, wasnt really HER doing that, it was the life force. And she doesn't have it anymore. And she's not a mutant. Okay then! I was really intrigued that the mutants had such a powerful figure, one that was feared on an intergalactic scale as herself and not as something possessing her/emulating her. The family retcon rubbed me the wrong way because whilst it didn't take her off the board, it did take away one of the strongest mutants in marvel history by making her not a mutant.

I still love her as a character but her ties with mutants and her family were quite intense and now they're just kind of severed. She had a fantastic sense of drama with Magneto and now it feels invalidated, as though the past still exists but there's no future with them, no real need for them to heal or rework a relationship. She's also cutting herself off from Speed and Wiccan emotionally due to the strange nature of their relationship and she has no relation to Polaris now either. Bridges being burned all around her. I also loved Magneto's desire to redeem himself toward her from his end. I liked him taking an interest in Luna, Speed and Wiccan and it was very grounding for him but now he pretty much has no business ever going near them and nothing positive to anchor him, he's slipping back in to his 'AT ANY COST' thing again because outside of mutants he doesn't have anything to lose. A lot of potential growth and exposition has been lost and I don't particularly see anything being gained aside from more convoluted twists to make the new origins work.

Great post, the loss of storyline potental and the damage to previous stories and all the characters is immense.

[Iron Maiden]

That is because their contract of who they make action figures of was written before relations between Marvel and Fox went completely down the drain. It's why they are putting out a Polaris action figure this year who is entirely owned in terms of movie rights by Fox studios as there is no restrictions on that companies contract for type of Marvel characters they can create.

http://marveltoynews.com/sdcc-marvel...laris-warlock/

When they are forced to renegotiate the terms of the contract that is when studio politics may come into play and their contract may end up looking like the more recient ones that are only allowed to use MCU characters that don't have joint rights with Fox.

Also, you missed the part on the webpage you linked to where that t-shirt was designed by Steevin a fan, these are not the shirts fans will go to Walmart or any store to buy.

Yeah, but that's why a site like this is more likely to have those second tier characters. Even in the past, I got my Doctor Doom shirts online not at any stores. I'm hoping they come out with an Infamous Doom shirt but again, I'm most likely to get it online than at a stores.
But the Doctor Doom hoodie that came out a couple of years ago was at Hot Topic stores.
Even some of those shirts are available only at a big box stores online and not the stores themselves. Most of the retail space is taken up by sports teams. Like by me, it's full of Cubs or Sox or Bears. They will have a rack or two of Marvel stuff and then some DC stuff for Batman v Superman which got pushed out for Suicide Squad. But not nearly in the quantities of sports teams. The Marvel Her space right now must be an experiment because I've seen it only at a couple of Kohl's stores.

I don't know what the nature of Marvel's deal is with Hasbro but I believe it's pretty long term.

This is the last update I could find from showbiz paper Variety Hasbro extends Disney pact for Marvel and Star Wars Toys and games

Hasbro will guarantee an additional $80 million in royalty payments to Walt Disney Co. to extend Marvel licensing pact for two years, to 2020, and also will pay Mouse House up to $225 million extra for Star Wars merch rights.

Companies said contract extension aligns terms for Marvel and Lucasfilm agreements, following Disney’s acquisition of Lucasfilm last year. Hasbro’s rights to Star Wars franchise also extend to 2020.


Separately, Hasbro on Monday posted a 16% decline in second-quarter 2013 net profit on weaker sales of boy-targeted toys — a category in which the Disney properties have been key. Net revenue declined 5.9% for the period, to $766 million.


Hasbro’s additional Marvel payments are contingent on additional Marvel theatrical releases. The $225 million extra for Star Wars takes into consideration Disney’s next three installments planned for the space-opera powerhouse, with $75 million payable on signing. “Star Wars: Episode VII,” helmed by J.J. Abrams, currently skedded for summer 2015 release.

[jmc247]

I don't know what the nature of Marvel's deal is with Hasbro but I believe it's pretty long term.

This is the last update I could find from showbiz paper Variety Hasbro extends Disney pact for Marvel and Star Wars Toys and games

An extension means the same terms as before continued to 2020 which is good news, Hasbro has a fair bit of pull from making mega millions from Star Wars and Marvel figures. But, also realize the date in question from the deal is before the Marvel/Fox relationship went to total hell.

As of 2013 Marvel was unhappy with Fox and film rights characters owned in part or in full by them. But, they weren't out at that point to lose easy bucks by withholding partially or fully Fox movie rights owned characters from fans willing to shell out money for them. Something big changed in 2014 were at Marvel the policy went from neglect of Fox shared properties to willing to take a loss to see they aren't sold to fans.

It's no surprise that was the year that the retcon of Wanda and Pietro's parentage came as well.

The retcon has done neither of the characters favors in the comics and their use by Fox and Marvel studios will end in a decade or so. Quicksilver and Wanda were going to get more promotion in the comics anyway because of them being in the films, but the retcon reduced their storyline potential.

[Iron Maiden]

Yeah, the acrimony between Fox and Marvel Entertainment most likely got ramped up when Fox rushed into production a Fantastic Four Film when they were on the verge of losing the rights. Most reports I've read that had some kind of knowledge of the deal said that Fox had to put something into production every 8 years in order to keep the film rights. Note that Fox went into production with novice director Trank in 2014 for a 2015 release. Rise of the Surfer was released in 2007, which meant they were in production in 2006. So they just got in under the wire. But with the admitted failure of the film to the point where Fox film mogul Rupert Murdoch blamed the film for Fox's poor fiscal performance there has been some speculation that Fox is softening towards the idea of working out an agreement like Sony did with Spider-Man. It also makes me wonder if Marvel is doing an end run around Fox by making Doom take on the Iron Man mantle for now along with the new character. Iron Doom might be a back door way of getting Doom into the MU. But that is just hopeful speculation on my part

As for the retcon reducing the story potential? I beg to disagree. Scarlet Witch's solo (which I am enjoying quite a lot) is playing up the mystical side of her character.

[gurkle]

It also makes me wonder if Marvel is doing an end run around Fox by making Doom take on the Iron Man mantle for now along with the new character. Iron Doom might be a back door way of getting Doom into the MU. But that is just hopeful speculation on my part

While they'll never tell us how the contracts are arranged, it's almost certain that Doom belongs 100% with the Fantastic Four rights. Making Wolverine an Avenger in the comics didn't give them the right to use Wolverine in the MCU, and the Scarlet Witch/Quicksilver retcon has no impact on Fox's ability to use Quicksilver.

The best people can guess from the outside is that some of the characters were mentioned specifically in the contracts - so Marvel kept FF characters like Black Panther and the Inhumans separate, but Fox got Silver Surfer with the FF rights. And then other characters, like Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, are in a grey area. But Doom can't possibly be one of them, because he's the most important FF character outside of the FF themselves.

As for the retcon reducing the story potential? I beg to disagree. Scarlet Witch's solo (which I am enjoying quite a lot) is playing up the mystical side of her character.

She's had that mystical side for a long time though, and it never seemed to be a problem that she was also a mutant. I know some fans prefer her to be one or the other - a mutant with probability-altering powers or a sorceress - but I thought the whole "mutant sorceress" thing was an interesting part of her character.

Even though they can't call her a mutant in the MCU, her portrayal seems closer to that; she's kind of like a mutant (right down to being feared and hated) and her powers are in a grey area between mutation and magic.

[lalalei2001]

I like what Comics Should Be Good had to say about the first time Magneto went without his costume. It was an epic reveal because the readers had never seen him like that either!



"Magneto had never been shown without his helmet, so this moment by Roy Thomas, Neal Adams and Tom Palmer beautifully played upon the conventions of the X-Men title by taking advantage of that odd fact by making the reader be as duped as Angel is. It is a great twist on the traditional Magneto last page reveal. Plus, how awesome is that facial design by Neal Adams? It set the whole “Hey, he looks like Quicksilver. Maybe he’s his dad?” story into motion."

http://www.cbr.com/month-of-avengers...gneto-reveals/

[Ken Ashcroft]

you could say that he looks like an older Quicksilver especially with the white hair but it probably didn't register with anyone at the time due to the fact that so many characters look identical or very similar without their masks/helmets. There was a shot of a group of Avengers more or less around the same time without their masks on and if you didn't know better, you would have sworn that Steve Rogers,Clint Barton and Hank Pym were triplets.