Do you like that Magneto is no longer the father of Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver?

[Carabas]

I'd argue that those stories were a sign of someone running out of material.

I'd argue that properly mutant-themed stories where rather rare at best until Days Of Future Past.

[phantom1592]

Doesn't that description kinda apply to Magik too?

Kind of... She always had that stolen to limbo and trained as sorcerer thing going on, and whatever her mutant powers are, are usually downplayed. The magic was alwasy the focus with her. Maybe Scarlet Witch was always more high profile (at least till post AvX) so the mutant/spells thing bugged me more with her. Magik just wasn't in much that I read.

It works as easily as Captain America, Black Widow, and anyone else since they were frozen to explain their ages a lifetime ago. How dense does fans around here have to be to keep bringing that silly agrument up? In actuality, Magneto should physically just be about 5-7 years older than them..you know, if anyone ever read the damn comics.

Valeria was shown to be a old woman in FF 496..why is Doom so young? Why does Wolverine pine after Jean Grey even though he's 100 years older than her? Why does Exodus look late 20s even though he was born in the 12th century? Why is Bucky still looking like college frat boy? I mean...get real. Stop acting silly. Its comics...Peter Parker should be nearly 40 but he's not. All semantics.

I don't understand what your saying here? The timeline has always slid. Iron Man went from Korean War to Vietnam to Middle east with constant reboots and retcons. Captain America was frozen for 20 years... then 40 years... now 60 years. Everyone has been 'active' for about 10 years, give or take at any given time. This is a pretty common comic book trope that shouldn't need too much explaining.

The problem with Magneto, is that he has NOT been slid. He was not frozen. He has actually lived and been active for all of those 90 years. His holocaust origin, while actually a retcon in itself, has become a solid staple in his motivations. He was physically de-aged, which allows him to be active in his 90's, but that wasn't till that 10 year active period where he was with the X-men... so that doesn't really help with him fathering 20 year olds in his late 70's.

it does if you are well versed in Marvel canon. the twins were kept in stasis by the High Evolutionary. it's why they aren't old (while originally being the offspring of WWII heroes). same reason why Jessica Drew isn't elderly.



there's a recap, here...http://aboutcomics.blogwyrm.com/?p=285

Interesting, it doesnt' actually say anything about 'stasis' though. I suppose that could be a good enough loophole to keep the connection, but it still feels a bit weak. I mean, if you're going to keep the High Evolutionary (another character that I'm not fond of) why bother muddying up the water with Magneto. Just have him activate some mutant genes or something in an experiment.

Seems a LOT of work to transport kids from the 50's to the 2000's just to keep the magneto connection. The fact they keep trying to make him a sympathetic 'good guy' even takes away the whole "My dad is an evil terrorist" angle that was the only real payoff with them being related.

[Beaubier]

A lot of work? Not really. HE keeping the twins in stasis for an indeterminate period of time is a simple explanation. There are many other characters who have back stories that are a far bigger headache to understand. See: Rachel Grey, Wiccan and Speed, and the list goes on.

Honestly who really pays that much attention to the timeline anyway? All New X-Men shows the O5 as being teens in the 1960s from the fashion and hairstyle Jean had. Yet obviously Cyke and the other adult O5 are still physically younger than they ought to be. Same with other characters. The Marvel timeline is a mess as is but in terms of "cleaning it up" Magneto and his family seem relatively simple to explain anyway compared to some other characters.

[ZNOP]

it's all Claremont's doing. he's had some brilliant ideas. but, the longer you give him to work, the stranger his ideas become. that's why Storm is and a combination of all races.

Where is the conflict with Ororo having descended from sorceresses (FYI, in story they were referred to as witch-priestesses) and being an amalgam of all races -- especially when most (if not all) anthropological scholars agree that early humans first migrated out of sub-saharan Africa into Asia.

and sometimes I wish that the X-Men had never encountered the Shiar. I have no idea what outerspace has to do with mutants fighting to protect the people that fear/hate them.

Mutants have just as must a right to explore space, protect the planet, and meet alien (species) beings as the Fantastic Four, Avengers, and NASA do. Moreover, the Fantastic Four, and the Avengers are attacked on a regular albeit for several different reasons -- but, threaten with death and persecution nonetheless...

[phantom1592]

A lot of work? Not really. HE keeping the twins in stasis for an indeterminate period of time is a simple explanation. There are many other characters who have back stories that are a far bigger headache to understand. See: Rachel Grey, Wiccan and Speed, and the list goes on.

Honestly who really pays that much attention to the timeline anyway? All New X-Men shows the O5 as being teens in the 1960s from the fashion and hairstyle Jean had. Yet obviously Cyke and the other adult O5 are still physically younger than they ought to be. Same with other characters. The Marvel timeline is a mess as is but in terms of "cleaning it up" Magneto and his family seem relatively simple to explain anyway compared to some other characters.

I blame the X-movies. Ian McKellen did a fantastic job as Magneto, but really showcased how old he is. First Class going back to the Nazi well didn't help matters.

And yeah, I really wish the O5 story had been handled better. I cringe every time they claim they are still from the 60's. It's just a bad joke at this point. I see it as Bendis focusing on the punchline to a funny joke instead of legitimate storytelling.

I think something that could be done is yank Magneto out of the timestream for 50 years or so. Some Nazi experiment or something that puts him on ice till the mid 70's/80's and then let him meet up with Xavier and be friends or something. Then the numbers start falling back into place again.

[phantom1592]

.sometimes I wish that the X-Men had never encountered the Shiar. I have no idea what outerspace has to do with mutants fighting to protect the people that fear/hate them.

1st of all, I agree with you on the core there. I hate the Shiar and just about every story ever featuring them. I find it interesting that as such a fan of Green Lantern... I have never cared for ANY of the cosmic Marvel stuff. Thanos (without gauntlet), Surfer, Shiar, Kree, Skrulls... I really hate all of it, with the exception of Super Skrull and the occasional Galactus attack. And even then, I prefer my Marvel stuff on Earth.


THAT said... one of the core tenents back then wasn't JUST 'Us against Them'... It was about how all humanity needed to live in peace and harmony. That was Xavier's dream. Bringing in Aliens and invasions and such... Takes the focus away from 'Human or Mutant' and makes everyone 'Earthlings'. The idea is solid, even if I never liked the execution. It's pretty much the same idea Watchmen used. Petty squabbling between races and nations disappear when a greater enemy shows up.

[Michael Watkins]

Interesting, it doesnt' actually say anything about 'stasis' though. I suppose that could be a good enough loophole to keep the connection, but it still feels a bit weak. I mean, if you're going to keep the High Evolutionary (another character that I'm not fond of) why bother muddying up the water with Magneto. Just have him activate some mutant genes or something in an experiment.

I'm not against that. but you were using the twins age as a reason to get rid of Magneto's connection to them. as I mentioned, they were originally the children of WWII heroes; same problem. when it didn't work out for with the Franks, the High Evolutionary kept them in stasis (as babies) until he could find suitable parents. and, after that, they were physically rebooted with the rest of the Avengers. remember Heroes Reborn? Hawkeye regained his hearing. Kid Tony Stark was aged into his prime. and the others were reset at their prime. otherwise, they'd all be much older (or younger in Tony's case).

Seems a LOT of work to transport kids from the 50's to the 2000's just to keep the magneto connection. The fact they keep trying to make him a sympathetic 'good guy' even takes away the whole "My dad is an evil terrorist" angle that was the only real payoff with them being related.

little late in the game to let that bother you. Claremont was the one that gave him depth; made him more "sympathetic." their respective ages don't matter, imo. Magneto didn't raise them. they were adults when they all became aware of the connection. problem is that they keep making things more complicated with the retcons. how about making it simpler, for a change?

p.s. the angle was more "I have become what I hated about my parents." both Wanda and Pietro have done horrible things. Pietro was every bit the bigot Magneto was. and Wanda was just as destructive.

[Ken Ashcroft]

Well they didn't call themselves the Brotherhood of Evil mutants for no reason. They haven't retconned that as well have they?

[Michael Watkins]

1st of all, I agree with you on the core there. I hate the Shiar and just about every story ever featuring them. I find it interesting that as such a fan of Green Lantern... I have never cared for ANY of the cosmic Marvel stuff. Thanos (without gauntlet), Surfer, Shiar, Kree, Skrulls... I really hate all of it, with the exception of Super Skrull and the occasional Galactus attack. And even then, I prefer my Marvel stuff on Earth.


THAT said... one of the core tenents back then wasn't JUST 'Us against Them'... It was about how all humanity needed to live in peace and harmony. That was Xavier's dream. Bringing in Aliens and invasions and such... Takes the focus away from 'Human or Mutant' and makes everyone 'Earthlings'. The idea is solid, even if I never liked the execution. It's pretty much the same idea Watchmen used. Petty squabbling between races and nations disappear when a greater enemy shows up.

what bothered me about it was that it removed their underdog status. instead of it being "mutants but we're just like you" it became a book about special people living in a giant mansion with alien technology. they became legion of superheroes-esque; just nothing in common with the common person. if it were me, there'd be more of a struggle portrayed with mutancy. It's why I was more of a new mutants fan than x-fan. they had a danger room. but every other aspect of it was normal teen drama. I can't say that some of those stories weren't entertaining. I liked the Outback era; them being on the run from Reavers. but it felt like a real divergence from the central premise of the book. it's like reading a Fantastic Four book where they are doing noir detective work instead of exploring another dimension. it might be fun to read. but is it Fantastic Four?

[Michael Watkins]

I blame the X-movies. Ian McKellen did a fantastic job as Magneto, but really showcased how old he is. First Class going back to the Nazi well didn't help matters.

And yeah, I really wish the O5 story had been handled better. I cringe every time they claim they are still from the 60's. It's just a bad joke at this point. I see it as Bendis focusing on the punchline to a funny joke instead of legitimate storytelling.

I think something that could be done is yank Magneto out of the timestream for 50 years or so. Some Nazi experiment or something that puts him on ice till the mid 70's/80's and then let him meet up with Xavier and be friends or something. Then the numbers start falling back into place again.

or they could just say that Magda and the twins died during the birthing process. High Evolutionary used their dna (and maybe some other dna since he's nuts) to create Wanda and Pietro; out of scientific curiousity. but they weren't created and sent out into the world until much later; whenever the numbers lineu up. that makes them, technically, not Magneto's children. but they share some of his genes. no offense, but bringing in time travel is a lateral move; if we're trying to make things more concise.

[Michael Watkins]

Where is the conflict with Ororo having descended from sorceresses (FYI, in story they were referred to as witch-priestesses) and being an amalgam of all races -- especially when most (if not all) anthropological scholars agree that early humans first migrated out of sub-saharan Africa into Asia.

It's not about right and wrong. Storm being descended from magic is a Claremontism. he tends to keep adding on to the story of female characters he writes; Sage, for instance. simpler is better, imo. Ororo was impressive enough w/o the link. but it, personally, doesn't bother me.

Mutants have just as must a right to explore space, protect the planet, and meet alien (species) beings as the Fantastic Four, Avengers, and NASA do. Moreover, the Fantastic Four, and the Avengers are attacked on a regular albeit for several different reasons -- but, threaten with death and persecution nonetheless...

did Xavier need to be the consort of Lilandra? did the mansion need to be littered with Shiar Tech? why not mutant-built technology? they know Forge, right? this is why Xavier and Beast never rank very high in the intelligence threads. the x-men just aren't portrayed as self-reliant enough.

[phantom1592]

what bothered me about it was that it removed their underdog status. instead of it being "mutants but we're just like you" it became a book about special people living in a giant mansion with alien technology. they became legion of superheroes-esque; just nothing in common with the common person. if it were me, there'd be more of a struggle portrayed with mutancy. It's why I was more of a new mutants fan than x-fan. they had a danger room. but every other aspect of it was normal teen drama. I can't say that some of those stories weren't entertaining. I liked the Outback era; them being on the run from Reavers. but it felt like a real divergence from the central premise of the book. it's like reading a Fantastic Four book where they are doing noir detective work instead of exploring another dimension. it might be fun to read. but is it Fantastic Four?

I have a huge gap involving Outback era. For me it was always Cyclops and the original X-factor books. I loved the first 2-3 Masterpiece collected uncanny X-men's from Giant Sized #1 up past Dark Phoenix.. that was 'my team' Then once that started drifting away with Rogue joining in and Mohawk Storm and Forge... I switched to X-factor with more of the Good people trying to save innocents and train rookies... Then I came back with the Gold/Blue teams.

Personally I always had a hard time accepting the 'underdog' status when they were just BETTER in every way from normal people. They had the powers, regeneration, lived in mansions... yeah, normal people didn't like them... but they had plenty of friends under that roof, so it didn't seem that bad. What I loved WAS the superhero aspect of them. The ones who saved the world repeatedly because they had the powers and did what nobody else could. People hated tehm... it didn't matter, they saved them all the same.

Writing Superheroes as underdogs is REALLY hard. It CAN be done, but it's a REALLY tricky balancing act. Claremont and Simonson managed it a few times, but most writers seem to swing too far one way or the other.

[phantom1592]

did Xavier need to be the consort of Lilandra? did the mansion need to be littered with Shiar Tech? why not mutant-built technology? they know Forge, right? this is why Xavier and Beast never rank very high in the intelligence threads. the x-men just aren't portrayed as self-reliant enough.

It's a catch 22. With this much alien contact, why WOULDN'T they alien tech?? It just makes too much sense NOT to include it. Regardless of how much it diminish the earthlings.

Much like the MCU. Iron Man 3 comes out and everyone complains that the Avengers weren't making cameo's to help him with his problems... Civil War comes out and people complain that Cap is lost in his own movie.... AND that Thor and Hulk weren't involved too. Darned if you do, danged if you don't.

Sometimes the 'logical' choice isn't the best 'story' choice.

I think the Shiar stuff went too far, though I did like the holographic DangerRoom. It had a very Holodeck vibe to it that I thought worked pretty well for X-men.

[Michael Watkins]

It's a catch 22. With this much alien contact, why WOULDN'T they alien tech?? It just makes too much sense NOT to include it. Regardless of how much it diminish the earthlings.

Much like the MCU. Iron Man 3 comes out and everyone complains that the Avengers weren't making cameo's to help him with his problems... Civil War comes out and people complain that Cap is lost in his own movie.... AND that Thor and Hulk weren't involved too. Darned if you do, danged if you don't.

Sometimes the 'logical' choice isn't the best 'story' choice.

I think the Shiar stuff went too far, though I did like the holographic DangerRoom. It had a very Holodeck vibe to it that I thought worked pretty well for X-men.

that's just it. I was against the alien contact. it's not a catch-22, from my perspective. the alien contact was a slippery slope. it's like Claremont just used the book to write about all of the sci fi stuff he couldn't get away with outside of an indie comic. but don't get me wrong. he's my favorite x-writer. his contributions are indisputable. but he added a crap ton to the books; not all of it good. just from my entirely personal frame of reference, that space stuff was missing the point. the Brood are cool ripoffs of the aliens that Sigourney Weaver faced. but I didn't need them to menace the X-Men. they could have been used in any book. the X-Men have no shortage of terran-based adversaries. that wasn't good enough for Claremont. he wanted to tell tales of techno-organic-infected demons and X-Men becoming evil. and the Siege Perilous was just an excuse to drastically alter characters in an inorganic fashion. and, again, why couldn't Forge have created the danger room?

[Michael Watkins]

I have a huge gap involving Outback era. For me it was always Cyclops and the original X-factor books. I loved the first 2-3 Masterpiece collected uncanny X-men's from Giant Sized #1 up past Dark Phoenix.. that was 'my team' Then once that started drifting away with Rogue joining in and Mohawk Storm and Forge... I switched to X-factor with more of the Good people trying to save innocents and train rookies... Then I came back with the Gold/Blue teams.

Personally I always had a hard time accepting the 'underdog' status when they were just BETTER in every way from normal people. They had the powers, regeneration, lived in mansions... yeah, normal people didn't like them... but they had plenty of friends under that roof, so it didn't seem that bad. What I loved WAS the superhero aspect of them. The ones who saved the world repeatedly because they had the powers and did what nobody else could. People hated tehm... it didn't matter, they saved them all the same.

Writing Superheroes as underdogs is REALLY hard. It CAN be done, but it's a REALLY tricky balancing act. Claremont and Simonson managed it a few times, but most writers seem to swing too far one way or the other.

they wrote Spider-man as an underdog for decades. but I always saw it as the X-Men engaging in costume heroism as a public relations move. it was the easiest way to show the public that they weren't to be feared. it was also a reaction to Magneto showing up as a mutant boogeyman. they were formed to counter him (and threats like him). the underdog-ness is tied directly to a hero's resources. this is mentioned in the first few issues of the Thunderbolts (original run). Moonstone chastises Techno for using a self-made robotic butler. she wanted the team to be sympathetic and relatable. a robotic butler is the opposite of that. they also asked for aid from the city; when it was completely unnecessary. that's how I, personally, think the X-Men should operate. Xavier's childhood home serves as their military quarters/dorm. but the individual mutants should probably struggle, a bit. they should be out there in the world/prepared to be out in the world. and, for the most part, that is going on (or was back when I was reading regularly). I think the Danger Room should be something that occasionally breaks down. no what I never wanted? the Danger Room being revealed as a telepathically-lobotomized alien life form (it happened, folks). X-Force did it right. Cable's group stole and squatted in one of Arcade's Murder Worlds.