PREVIEW: DC Universe: Rebirth #1

[Lee Stone]

Follow this step by step...
1. When the New Mutants were killed by the Beyonder and then revived... what if they were revived with different memories..?
2. What if the whole Earth was killed and then revived with different memories?
3. What if the whole Earth was killed and some weren't revived, and they were replaced with characters that had long been dead, all with different memories to match the current status quo?
4. What if they weren't killed but just 'willed out of existence'?

Now... if you made it this far...
Did the past before the change still exist?

I think if you're outside the bubble it would go pre-change - change - post-change.
But if you're in the bubble, you can only see the post-change, which has a history that extends into the time that was previously only in the pre-change.
And if you were in the bubble, you'd believe the post-change is all there is.
But if you somehow made your way out of the bubble you would see that the post-change really had no history and you'd see what existed before the change.

Now, think of Psylocke's trip through the Siege Perilous.
Since the world didn't change, to the X-Men and everyone else she had a history separate than what she believed.
When people write about her in bios, it goes: history of Psylocke prior to the Siege Perilous then the effects of her trip and then her new existence afterwards.
The reason being that the world of the X-Men didn't change, just Psylocke.

However, if it was written from Psylocke's POV, or if the whole world had gone through the Siege Perilous, there would have been nothing to relate that there was anything ever before that was different.
Then you'd get Version 1 and Version 2 of Psylocke because there would be nothing connecting the two.

Now, imagine Zero Hour.
The last universe faded out of existence with the last panels of every comic being blank.
The next month, all the books continued on as if nothing ever happened, at least in their minds.

Now, the question is... which origin (of Character A) is correct?
The answer is... the one they remember, unless someone from the previous reality still exists and remembers one that's different. (Well, unless you're Psycho-Pirate and no one believes you because you're labeled crazy.)
Then that one supercedes the origin the character, themselves, remember. They just don't remember it. But it is still their origin.
However, if no one remembers the previous reality then Character A's origin is the one they remember and that's referenced by those around them.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

You can't use modern Loki as an example... He's a multi-dimensional shape-shifting magic being. And prior to becoming Tom H. he was also a hot, yet creepy babe for a long time, and after that, a cute little boy for even longer.

And all of those changes were explained and more or less logical in a weird trickster-god kind of way - the magic behind it all made sense and worked well for a character such as Loki.


Doing the same to Helena Bertinelli is seriously not the same thing.

Then how about Peter Parker who went from looking like a scrawny nerd as drawn by Steve Ditko to a regular All-American boy as drawn by John Romita Sr. or Hulk who went from Gray to Green. Or even Lex Luthor who was notably heavy-set, seemingly looking like Wilson Fisk in the 80s, and then without explanation slimmed back down.

[Lee Stone]

I know this isn't what you asked, but since others have given good replies, I figured I'd weigh in on this.

Pre-Flashpoint Superman isn't ORIGINAL Superman.

Not even close.

In fact, he's so far off that if OG Superman was a gigantic oil-tanker, and Pre-FP Supes aimed his heat-vision at it, he'd miss the mark with about a 100 miles or so, give or take.

THIS is OG Superman:



Please, I really wish you would keep this in mind, when speaking of the various versions of Superman.

And, the final state of Pre-FP Supes wasn't the character from Byrne's "Man of Steel" - that character had changed around 5 times, and by that time had 3 different origins. He's actually a very, very confusing character, if you try and compress his history down into one sentence - even more so now that he's a part of the New-52 Universe.

I would say Byrne's Superman ended with Death of Superman.
Which is around the same time all the post-Crisis stuff came to an end: Knightfall, Perez's Wonder Woman ending, JLI: Breakdowns...
Just shortly before Zero Hour.

[Dataweaver]

I know this isn't what you asked, but since others have given good replies, I figured I'd weigh in on this.

Pre-Flashpoint Superman isn't ORIGINAL Superman.

Not even close.

In fact, he's so far off that if OG Superman was a gigantic oil-tanker, and Pre-FP Supes aimed his heat-vision at it, he'd miss the mark with about a 100 miles or so, give or take.

THIS is OG Superman:



Please, I really wish you would keep this in mind, when speaking of the various versions of Superman.

No; that is merely the Earth-2 copy of the OG Superman. This is OG Superman:

And, the final state of Pre-FP Supes wasn't the character from Byrne's "Man of Steel" - that character had changed around 5 times, and by that time had 3 different origins. He's actually a very, very confusing character, if you try and compress his history down into one sentence - even more so now that he's a part of the New-52 Universe.

Depends on how detailed you want to be.

[Black Charger]

Please, I really wish you would keep this in mind, when speaking of the various versions of Superman.

And, the final state of Pre-FP Supes wasn't the character from Byrne's "Man of Steel" - that character had changed around 5 times, and by that time had 3 different origins. He's actually a very, very confusing character, if you try and compress his history down into one sentence - even more so now that he's a part of the New-52 Universe.

This is very true. In 1992 before Doomsday, DC released the Superman Special #1 by Walter Simonson where Superman fights the Quarmer Sand Superman and it's unclear exactly who won the fight. If Superman actually won or the Sand Superman absorbed Superman ' powers and even his mind and spirit (?)so completely that he basically became Superman.
There are articles that say yes and others that say no. It's up to the reader to decide.

[Lee Stone]

On a side note, I think Rebirth is also acknowledging one other shift in comics (at least at the Big 2).
The two biggest hits of 2015 were both built on heavy continuity and still managed to appeal to new readers.
Which goes against common thoughts about barriers of entry.

[L.R Johansson]

I would say Byrne's Superman ended with Death of Superman.
Which is around the same time all the post-Crisis stuff came to an end: Knightfall, Perez's Wonder Woman ending, JLI: Breakdowns...
Just shortly before Zero Hour.

You know, in a meta-textual sense, you kind of have a point here - it does line up fairly well.

No; that is merely the Earth-2 copy of the OG Superman. This is OG Superman: http://www.cosmicteams.com/jsa/profi...kingdom-2b.jpg

Hah! Well, in a meta-textual way, you've certainly got me. There are definitely differences between OG Superman and Earth-2 Superman, if you look closer at them.

But, if we're gonna' be meta-textual and purer in our take... that can't possibly be OG Superman either, now can it. ; )



(rather interesting btw, how both the reporter who gains superstrength, and the bald mad scientist calling himself Superman, with mental powers, are in their own way prototypes of not just supes but of Luthor as well - but sort of merged and mixed up...)

And then there's this little picture, wich sort-of lasted for about the first issue or so.


Look, we could fence about this for weeks, but for the intents and purposes of the limits of this perticular discussion, I'd say my original take on it is the closest to something that a majority of fans will agree on.

And I always thought that trapped Superman in The Kingdom WAS supposed to be Earth-2 Superman? Seeing as he went into a form of fantasy-world, not quite real, cut off from the rest of the Universe at the end of Crisis, yeah? And then when E-2 Supes returns, he PUNCHES OUT OF SUCH A WORLD...! 0_o A world which seemingly, has many, many similarities to the world which the Superman from The Kingdom seems to be trapped in. (i.e sort of a strange limbo they can't get out of and wherein they can see into the outside worlds)

Depends on how detailed you want to be.

Well, you obviously want to include his origin - and he's got three origins. Sure, every detail in them doesn't have to be in there, but some of them have to. And then you need to explain his kid, and how he was born, since that's a big part of the character now.

Even if you slim it down it turns into quite the... "W.T.F...?"

On the other hand, I won't say it's impossible - I suppose it might be possible to actually "hide" the details enough that a new or returning reader would never suspect anything, and then one can't necessarily say that it has much of an importance.

Do you by chance have a suggestion for a intro-blurb? (you know, "rocketed from the planet krypton, yadda, yadda")

This is very true. In 1992 before Doomsday, DC released the Superman Special #1 by Walter Simonson where Superman fights the Quarmer Sand Superman and it's unclear exactly who won the fight. If Superman actually won or the Sand Superman absorbed Superman ' powers and even his mind and spirit (?)so completely that he basically became Superman.
There are articles that say yes and others that say no. It's up to the reader to decide.

REALLY?? They actually did a retake on the Quarmer?! Well... and with such an ending... rather interesting I must say. I had completely missed this part, and I thought I knew the Post-Crisis Supes history fairly well.

[king of hybrids]

so which Doctor Fate is that meant to be? the DC You one or the pre-FP one?

[Starocotes]

so which Doctor Fate is that meant to be? the DC You one or the pre-FP one?

This is very clearly the Kent V. Nelson Dr. Fate that was created by Steve Gerber, at least from the costume and the fact that he seemingly knows what he is doing which was established in the last books of the JSA series.

[king of hybrids]

so what's Khalid meant to be, because going around labeling all the new52 characters who can't be reconciled with their previous incarnations as frauds or secretly villains (as the theories that nu52 superman was Prime) is going to get very backlash-y very quickly

(i don't particularity care either way, i'm just noting that if they do it enough times there will be a problem)

[L.R Johansson]

This is very clearly the Kent V. Nelson Dr. Fate that was created by Steve Gerber, at least from the costume and the fact that he seemingly knows what he is doing which was established in the last books of the JSA series.

So the Kent V. -fate was actually capable? I didn't quite get that impression from the previews, but I suppose he grew as a character.

I'm hoping it's the original though... Kent Nelson - legend of World War 2, Justice Society of America, and the most powerful superhero magician North of Dr. Strange! =D

But what are the odds...

[Lee Stone]

so what's Khalid meant to be, because going around labeling all the new52 characters who can't be reconciled with their previous incarnations as frauds or secretly villains (as the theories that nu52 superman was Prime) is going to get very backlash-y very quickly

(i don't particularity care either way, i'm just noting that if they do it enough times there will be a problem)

I personally think Khalid is the pre-Crisis Earth-1 Dr. Fate that never was.

[Starocotes]

so what's Khalid meant to be, because going around labeling all the new52 characters who can't be reconciled with their previous incarnations as frauds or secretly villains (as the theories that nu52 superman was Prime) is going to get very backlash-y very quickly

(i don't particularity care either way, i'm just noting that if they do it enough times there will be a problem)

Actually we have to see. The problem is the fact that there should be only ONE Helm of Nabu.

So the Kent V. -fate was actually capable? I didn't quite get that impression from the previews, but I suppose he grew as a character.

I'm hoping it's the original though... Kent Nelson - legend of World War 2, Justice Society of America, and the most powerful superhero magician North of Dr. Strange! =D

But what are the odds...

Kent V. was not capable at all from the start. You should read Countdown to Mystery it is quite good.
But Willingham used this Dr. Fate afterwards in his JSA book and he learned there quite a lot ... unfortunatly off the pages.

[HunterX]

The reason being that the world of the X-Men didn't change, just Psylocke.

However, if it was written from Psylocke's POV, or if the whole world had gone through the Siege Perilous, there would have been nothing to relate that there was anything ever before that was different.
Then you'd get Version 1 and Version 2 of Psylocke because there would be nothing connecting the two.

You sure you in the right forum?

[L.R Johansson]

Kent V. was not capable at all from the start. You should read Countdown to Mystery it is quite good.
But Willingham used this Dr. Fate afterwards in his JSA book and he learned there quite a lot ... unfortunatly off the pages.

Ah. Yeah, I was kind of... sceptical about that series when it came out - especially after Countdown to Final Crisis turned out to be such complete rubbish - it more or less got me to quit reading DC for a while there.

But maybe I'll give it another chance now.

Err... if you were to rank the two Countdown-series head-to-head, on a scale of 1-10 - then how would you say they stack up next to each other?