Anyone else gearing up to hate Harley Quinn in the new movie?

[Unfinishedsentenc]

Because I am.

Each day there's more and more evidence that she'll in someway break things off with Joker in Suicide Squad; she's even got a solo film in the works, and while she could still be in a relationship with Joker in that one--as being in a relationship with a man doesn't suddenly render a character less interesting--it does seem unlikely for that to be the case, going by all the evidence that's been presented in the trailers and set photos. Now, I hated when they estranged the couple in the comics and, call me foolish, but ever since the movie was announced, I was holding out hope that the great and the good would opt for a more loyal representation of the character for her first live-action appearance; one that recognized the original concept and all the facets that went along with it instead of just adhering to the most modernized version possible.

Why?

Because I truthfully find the act of having Harley Quinn permanently isolated from her abuser to be completely irrational and gratuitously feminist for a character that's never about being an independent woman. Because I can't comprehend all of the female empowerment propaganda being foisted onto a character who's supposed to be a mass-murdering psychopath. How does one woman's actions stand for all of womankind? How does representing misogyny and domestic abuse suddenly equate with condoning such horrible things? How can it be perfectly fine for a character to grow so much that he or she eventually outgrows him- or herself? See, I'm fine with Quinn having her own adventures and making friends and building a supporting cast and all that, but she completely loses her allure (and her hamartia, if you think about it) when she's not Joker's Robin. And there's another question: Why is it totally okay for Robin to be both a sidekick to Batman and also a fully realized person in his own right? That almost seems, hmm, what's the word? Oh right. Sexist.

I'm not alone.... right? (Braces for impact)

[Lemurion]

I find the whole idea of gearing up to hate a character in something to be utterly ludicrous. I either like the character, dislike the character, or don't care enough to watch/read/listen. I'll wait for the movie before I decide either way.

Then again, I also find the idea that Harley needs to be tied to the Joker to be interesting to be almost equally ludicrous. Her origin as a character is and will always be tied to the Joker, but that doesn't mean her present has to be. They were never a couple; it was the Joker and his toy, and that's not something you can use to build Harley stories on, only Joker stories.

Keeping them apart and dissolving the "relationship" in the comics also makes total sense from a business perspective.

Harley headlined four comics in April 2016 totaling 224,321 copies sold (not counting New Suicide Squad with 23,799 copies), Superman headlined 7 comics in April 2016, totaling 203,835 copies sold (including Action comics). Harley's Little Black Book, the lowest selling title with her name on the cover, sold just over 41,000 copies, or about 3,000 copies more than Superman, which was the highest selling super-book. Right now, she's DC's second best-selling character after Batman.

Harley exists to make DC comics money, Harley without the Joker is DC's second best-selling character. DC would be stupid to put her back into the role of "Joker's Robin" when it makes absolutely no business sense to do so. Taking her away from the Joker made DC money, she's not going back.

[Unfinishedsentenc]

I find the whole idea of gearing up to hate a character in something to be utterly ludicrous. I either like the character, dislike the character, or don't care enough to watch/read/listen. I'll wait for the movie before I decide either way.

Then again, I also find the idea that Harley needs to be tied to the Joker to be interesting to be almost equally ludicrous. Her origin as a character is and will always be tied to the Joker, but that doesn't mean her present has to be. They were never a couple; it was the Joker and his toy, and that's not something you can use to build Harley stories on, only Joker stories.

Keeping them apart and dissolving the "relationship" in the comics also makes total sense from a business perspective.

Harley headlined four comics in April 2016 totaling 224,321 copies sold (not counting New Suicide Squad with 23,799 copies), Superman headlined 7 comics in April 2016, totaling 203,835 copies sold (including Action comics). Harley's Little Black Book, the lowest selling title with her name on the cover, sold just over 41,000 copies, or about 3,000 copies more than Superman, which was the highest selling super-book. Right now, she's DC's second best-selling character after Batman.

Harley exists to make DC comics money, Harley without the Joker is DC's second best-selling character. DC would be stupid to put her back into the role of "Joker's Robin" when it makes absolutely no business sense to do so. Taking her away from the Joker made DC money, she's not going back.

There were thousands of stories, and there could be thousands more. It's not hard if you have an imagination. Like you said, it's not a creative issue, it's just a business one.

[DevilBat66]

So, you only like Harley Quinn because she's an abused victim and that's the only portrayal of her you like?

If having her grow as a character and having her move on from a mysoginistic relationship is sexist then I'll take the sexist version anyday over the the the victimized sextoy you seem to be longing for.

[Unfinishedsentenc]

So, you only like Harley Quinn because she's an abused victim and that's the only portrayal of her you like?

If having her grow as a character and having her move on from a mysoginistic relationship is sexist then I'll take the sexist version anyday over the the the victimized sextoy you seem to be longing for.

Yes and no. Yes, I like her to be in a misogynistic relationship, that's true. She's not a role model, and that's perfectly fine. I like her relationship with Joker because I can see it as the interesting dynamic it is from a strictly creative viewpoint, no more so than I would enjoy seeing the unhealthy relationship between Bruce and Joker alive and breathing on the sliver screen. Batman doesn't kill Joker, for his own reasons, and Joker won't kill Harley, again for his own reasons. Conversely, Harley won't kill Joker. This common relation shapes them into deep, tragic, complex characters, and helps add more layers to their personalities.

But no, that's not when I only like her. I love her in her own stories, when they're well-written. I just don't see why she has to be separated from Joker to have them.

[Lemurion]

There were thousands of stories, and there could be thousands more. It's not hard if you have an imagination. Like you said, it's not a creative issue, it's just a business one.

Sure there are potentially thousands of stories with Joker and Harley together, but those are all Joker stories, not Harley stories. The nature of their relationship is that when she was with him she had no agency. You can't have a protagonist without agency, that's not how fiction works. If you want to tell stories about Harleen Quinzel, you have to separate her from the Joker relationship.

Separating her from that relationship was the creative decision that made everything else possible. Yes it's also a business decision to keep Harley away from the Joker, but it was the creative one that made it possible to even have the discussion.

[JBatmanFan05]

Gearing up? I've always hated Harley. Only story of hers I liked is Dini/Timm Mad Love.

Terrible character, annoying, overexposed.

[Unfinishedsentenc]

Sure there are potentially thousands of stories with Joker and Harley together, but those are all Joker stories, not Harley stories. The nature of their relationship is that when she was with him she had no agency. You can't have a protagonist without agency, that's not how fiction works. If you want to tell stories about Harleen Quinzel, you have to separate her from the Joker relationship.

Separating her from that relationship was the creative decision that made everything else possible. Yes it's also a business decision to keep Harley away from the Joker, but it was the creative one that made it possible to even have the discussion.

Ok, but what I'm saying is that they should make stories that focus on Joker and Harley, instead of just one in particular. And yes, you can't have a protagonist without agency, that's true. But who's to say that Harley doesn't have agency when she's with Joker? In a lot of stories, she's both abused and free to do what she wants. And, normally, what she wants is to be with Joker, who in turn abuses her. If you're uncomfortable with that, you're uncomfortable with the basic aspect of the character to begin with. You're just in love with a new character altogether.

[Lemurion]

Ok, but what I'm saying is that they should make stories that focus on Joker and Harley, instead of just one in particular. And yes, you can't have a protagonist without agency, that's true. But who's to say that Harley doesn't have agency when she's with Joker? In a lot of stories, she's both abused and free to do what she wants. And, normally, what she wants is to be with Joker, who in turn abuses her. If you're uncomfortable with that, you're uncomfortable with the basic aspect of the character to begin with. You're just in love with a new character altogether.

The problem is that those stories are actually Joker stories. She's not "both abused and free to do what she wants," because the abuse is such that what she wants is what he wants. Her goals are all about him. The whole point of the Harley who hangs around with Joker is that he took her agency and replaced it with a focus on him. That's not a character, that's an adjunct, and you can't tell stories about the adjunct.

Harley without Joker is a successful comics character. Harley with Joker is not.

You appear to want Joker stories with Harley in them, not Harley stories. Unfortunately for your tastes, DC sees a better market for Harley stories.

[Pohzee]

I truthfully find the act of having Harley Quinn permanently isolated from her abuser to be completely irrational and gratuitously feminist for a character that's never about being an independent woman. Because I can't comprehend all of the female empowerment propaganda being foisted onto a character who's supposed to be a mass-murdering psychopath. How does one woman's actions stand for all of womankind? How does representing misogyny and domestic abuse suddenly equate with condoning such horrible things? How can it be perfectly fine for a character to grow so much that he or she eventually outgrows him- or herself? See, I'm fine with Quinn having her own adventures and making friends and building a supporting cast and all that, but she completely loses her allure (and her hamartia, if you think about it) when she's not Joker's Robin. And there's another question: Why is it totally okay for Robin to be both a sidekick to Batman and also a fully realized person in his own right? That almost seems, hmm, what's the word? Oh right. Sexist.

I'm not alone.... right? (Braces for impact)

Uh...

That is a poor example because Robin left Batman and became his own man. He's called Nightwing. The "cycle of Robins" revolves around them appearing directly into and soley in Batman books before branching out and adopting a new identity, leaving Batman.

Don't get me wrong, I hate Harley Quinn. I think she is annoying a best and often cringeworthy when unfunny writers try their hardest to make her funny. I don't like her solos and I don't like her appearing in other books.

I actually don't like that they feel the need to make solos for Batman's rogues in general, because they always end up making them uninteresting anti-heroes or something like that.

This notion is even stonger with Harley because I found her annoying and uninteresting even before so much focus was put on her.

I don't agree with your reasoning at all though. How is it sexist to move a domestic abuse victim away from their tormentor? I'm not radically left (or really left at all IMO,) but people that dislike things in pop culture because 'feminism' always sounded childish to me. I'm not a feminist, but the radical hate online for them is ridiculous to me.

[Agent Z]

Yes and no. Yes, I like her to be in a misogynistic relationship, that's true. She's not a role model, and that's perfectly fine. I like her relationship with Joker because I can see it as the interesting dynamic it is from a strictly creative viewpoint, no more so than I would enjoy seeing the unhealthy relationship between Bruce and Joker alive and breathing on the sliver screen. Batman doesn't kill Joker, for his own reasons, and Joker won't kill Harley, again for his own reasons. Conversely, Harley won't kill Joker. This common relation shapes them into deep, tragic, complex characters, and helps add more layers to their personalities.

But no, that's not when I only like her. I love her in her own stories, when they're well-written. I just don't see why she has to be separated from Joker to have them.

And what makes you think she'll be a role model in Suicide Squad?

[Claude]

How can it be perfectly fine for a character to grow so much

Because it's OK for a character to change over time.

I mean, really, it is. You mention Robin in later posts, every Robin has grown beyond Batman and gone off to do other things. Characters developed as sidekicks can grow in popularity to the point where they're no longer under another character's thumb.


That's neither "gratuitously feminist" or "propaganda". That's how stories are told.


Similarly, if you read a random Catwoman appearance over the past few decades you're FAR more likely to read one without Batman than with.

[Facundo Merello]

I don't like her because I find her annoying and overexposed (just like Deadpool), but I don't mind people liking or enjoying her stories.
And her relationship with the Joker could only work for a while before becoming tiring and gratuitous. The story works better if she gets out of the abusive relationship, otherwise is almost pointless.
I hope the movie references her past abuse by the Joker but only implied, because showing it can be very badly handled.

That said, I saw the trailer and find Harley Quinn simply dumb.

[ispacehead]

I don't expect much from this movie, but even inf it's only as good as the trailers make it look so far, it will likely be worlds better than BvS.

More than disliking Harley's portrayal, I really dislike her inclusion in this catch all team of misfit supporting characters, but regardless, I'm guessing it will be a memorable performance.

[Tuck]

When a character becomes popular enough, they get their own book(s).

If it's a villain, they have to become less of a straightforward villain and move into anti-villain or anti-hero territory.

From a storytelling perspective, what separates a villain from a hero is the ability to grow and overcome character flaws.

Harley having a solo book all but necessitates her (at least temporarily) overcoming her codependency on the Joker. (It's only very recently that Harley really put the last nail in the coffin of their relationship.)