Bubbles vs. Android 18

[Primetime Harder]

Didn't they bust up a huge asteroid at some point?

Several points, actually.

[StupidMoniker]

Since when is Android 18 a planet buster? Why do people keep trying to give Dragonball a pass on feats that no other series gets?

[Primetime Harder]

Since when is Android 18 a planet buster? Why do people keep trying to give Dragonball a pass on feats that no other series gets?

Probably because DBZ is the very definition of power-creep.

[Estrecca]

18 should be able to do that on a scale above planet busting though.

It doesn't follow, since the androids weren't part of the same ki user algorithm as Frieza or the Z-fighters.

Their deal was being faster, stronger and more durable, but not necessarily better blasters than the ki users.

[Captain Morgan]

Y'all are being absurd. When Despero beats down the collective JLA, including Superman, we don't assume he's weaker than Superman.

Rumbles rules prevents DBZ power scaling prevents us from extrapolating past what we have actually seen someone in the series performance. We never saw anyone bust a solar system, so Cell claiming he could isn't a solid feat.

But if we replaced 18 with pre-revival Freiza, we would know he could planet bust. We also know 18 could kick the shit out of Freiza, and literally bounced the attacks which shredded Freiza to pieces.

[Captain Morgan]

It doesn't follow, since the androids weren't part of the same ki user algorithm as Frieza or the Z-fighters.

Their deal was being faster, stronger and more durable, but not necessarily better blasters than the ki users.

Ah, well that's a fair argument. I'll bow out then do to inferior DBZ knowledge.

[Estrecca]

Ah, well that's a fair argument. I'll bow out then do to inferior DBZ knowledge.

*shrugs*

We can reasonably establish comparisons between Frieza and 19/20.

Piccolo and Gohan were surprised to discover that Super Saiyan Goku was a lot weaker than the last time they had seen him in combat (in Namek) during the fight against 19 (even though Goku still was holding the upper hand until he tried an energy attack and donated a good amount of energy to 19's energy reserves), which means that 100% Frieza is in the same ballpark as the energy absorption androids (but can be expected to lose something like 10/10 because of the energy sucking) and thus a good distance under the twins.

[Primetime Harder]

It doesn't follow, since the androids weren't part of the same ki user algorithm as Frieza or the Z-fighters.

Their deal was being faster, stronger and more durable, but not necessarily better blasters than the ki users.

Pretty much this. "More powerful than Freeza" doesn't necessarily mean "can generate more powerful blasts." 17/18 most definitely have feats for being stronger, faster, and more durable than him. But not the blast thing.

[The MunchKING]

You know if someone told Blossom that it was Android 18 (and possibly what that meant), she'd probably think to try to unscrew her, or take her apart with a wrench or something. It's about 50/50 on whether Bubbles would be bright/creative enough to think of it given the same consideration.

However if someone told them that she was actually CYBORG 18 (and what THAT means) then (in character) neither one of them would probably want to go all out on her. It's kind of a thing. Inhuman monsters can be killed, but bad PEOPLE go to jail.

[StupidMoniker]

Y'all are being absurd. When Despero beats down the collective JLA, including Superman, we don't assume he's weaker than Superman.

We give Despero the feats that he actually has, we don't give him other people's feats. Despero punks Martian Manhunter and Aquaman with his TP. We don't then say he can weaponize the minds of everyone on earth like Charles Xavier, because he hasn't done it, even though he has bested someone roughly on Chaz's level. We don't assume he is weaker, but we don't give him feats he doesn't have.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

Though to be fair to the Androids, 17's shield stood up to Piccolo's barrage during their fight on the islands.

[buutenks]

18's durability>>>>freeza. Bubbles isnt doing much to her im afraid.

[Cody]

We give Despero the feats that he actually has, we don't give him other people's feats. Despero punks Martian Manhunter and Aquaman with his TP. We don't then say he can weaponize the minds of everyone on earth like Charles Xavier, because he hasn't done it, even though he has bested someone roughly on Chaz's level. We don't assume he is weaker, but we don't give him feats he doesn't have.

Not really comparable. In DB; it has been constantly shown that the more energy you have; the more you can enhance your stats and dish out more powerful blasts with it. This has been shown time and time again. When one character physically dominates someone who is stated and shown to be all around more powerful than the guy who casually slaughtered Frieza(said guy was also casually one shotted by 17 after his attack was blocked from 18); then that person can do what the other characters can do in terms of physical ability and normal energy attacks(though that doesn't mean they can do as much damage as say; a "Kamehameha" as that type of attack can be charged to dish out more energy than the user even actually has). And their normal energy attacks have shown to damage, and outright butcher class 100 bricks just fine.

And we do see their energy attacks hurt the beings referred to above on a consistent basis. This shows that their energy attacks alone have the power to utterly maim Bubbles; a highly inconsistent character whose high end consistent feats wouldn't even put her anywhere near the same level as 18.

Bubbles has this one racing feat that would make her really really fast. Unfortunately it is the only incidence of her showing to have that level of physical speed and it is completely contradicted countless times both before and after that single incident.

NU Superman is currently being questioned as having significant fraction of light reactions due to the lack of showings to support it over the years after the library feat that put him there. Bubbles is a similar case, with most of her enemies not even having a shred of super speed. They usually fight, and get tagged by beings far below even bullet timing(Mojojojoe, chick with the crazy hair that attacks people, giant monsters, etc). So I am pretty sure she is getting turned into paste before she could do much of anything to 18. Even if she could attack; nothing she could do would harm 18 while anything 18 does would ruin Bubbles' day.

[StupidMoniker]

DB is anything but consistent. Goku as far back as the original Dragonball was at least bullet time fast. Jump forward all the way to Resurrection of F and Goku fights Freeza at essentially normal human speed. Motion of dust due to gravity is happening at the same speed as they are moving around. They have an exchange underwater that involves a very limited number of moves that lasts as long as Goku can hold his breath. This isn't one low showing either, it happens all the time.

The only way we get to the point of everyone and their brother from Dragonball being a bullet timer is if we assume starting at some base point (it seems a lot of people choose to start with Roshi blowing up the moon, but there are other arbitrary starting points) that every subsequent scene has the people from before acting at their absolute maximum capacity and that everything in the series is internally consistent (which I already showed above is not the case). Take the androids for instance. The big argument for their durability is that Freeza got chopped up by the sword that Android 18 blocks with an arm. From that people say Freeza survived being on an exploding planet, yet was chopped to pieces by this sword, so Android 18 must have durability far above what it takes to survive being on an exploding planet. For some reason that is enough for DB. Superman has burned through incredibly tough things with his heat vision, but we don't say anyone that survives a blast of heat vision is planet+ durability.

I don't accept that DB should get a pass on feats. It should be held to the same standards as every other source material. Given that, what actual feats does Android 18 have that show she can take what Bubbles can dish out? What actual speed feats does she have that show she can even perceive Bubbles?

[abmccray]

BoG isn't canon, and movies have animation issues that aren't present in the manga. Those speed issues never show up in the manga, and characters aren't generally tracked by slower characters - they only see highlights.

Super's anime fixed several things that the movies screwed up, too. That speed issue isn't there, it specifically shows Goku powering down before being shot, etc.

We know, and it has been established on this board a billion times, that the same amount of ki they put into specialized energy blasts can be put in speed/defense/hitting strength/etc. when focusing on it - it's a variable fuel that can be moved around to what they're trying to do. Thus, there is some scale with stronger characters that know how to manipulate it well.

Therefore, characters that have shown they know how to do this get the assumption that they're doing this in the future, and get upscaled based on other character feats relative to their own.

Characters that have not do not necessarily get that. I'm iffy on 18 being able to create a planet buster because she never made an explodey blast and was not trained in the same way as Goku/Krillen/Vegeta/Piccolo,etc. who have proven they can basically do what everyone else does, but we do know her lasts have a lot of potency. As far as speed, we know that Vegeta was going all out against her and she casually kept up, so she -has- to be at least his speed, at that point, while trying hard. We know that even without knowing how to use ki, she also tanked what he and Trunks put out as well, so she gets spotted that. We know from the guy who MADE her, that she was more powerful than he was even after sucking out loads of ki from people, so we have knowledgeable statements.