Bubbles vs. Android 18

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

Well, and the difference is that DBZ'ers all run on the same thing, ki energy. So because of that we can understand and grant certain things to characters as they display the same power source, only more or less of it depending on who it is.

[Farealmer]

That and when someone is stronger they are stronger. The android's weren't stronger than everybody, than not, than suddenly stronger again without any explanation. From appearance to appearance especially. When everybody who got stronger than them got stronger than them, they were stronger. It wasn't this weird thing in comics where the same two people have vastly different fight outcomes based on whoever is writing that week when the power of both beings hasn't changed from last time.

The Trunks fight works because unlike Superman Trunks wasn't holding back his attacks for drama or because of a moral code. Their was no "well he was holding back cause he doesn't kill"(since he obviously does). Nor was there a "Superman zaps a nonuber prepped Batman with heat vision and Batman just "being Batman" somehow survives" situation. The android's not only stopped the attack but then crushed Trunks. Trunks was actually surprised when the sword broke, showing it was a specific point of the androids durability. They were also shown quite handedly to be beyond Trunks. Saying "well they didn't blow up an arbitrary amount of stuff" is asking too much. Shonen series are full of benchmark feats to show how characters have improved without having to need every fight top out each participates destructive capacity. Even western comics do this, it just needs to watched closer there because of writer PIS swing.

[Cody]

BoG isn't canon, and movies have animation issues that aren't present in the manga. Those speed issues never show up in the manga, and characters aren't generally tracked by slower characters - they only see highlights.

Super's anime fixed several things that the movies screwed up, too. That speed issue isn't there, it specifically shows Goku powering down before being shot, etc.

We know, and it has been established on this board a billion times, that the same amount of ki they put into specialized energy blasts can be put in speed/defense/hitting strength/etc. when focusing on it - it's a variable fuel that can be moved around to what they're trying to do. Thus, there is some scale with stronger characters that know how to manipulate it well.

Therefore, characters that have shown they know how to do this get the assumption that they're doing this in the future, and get upscaled based on other character feats relative to their own.

Characters that have not do not necessarily get that. I'm iffy on 18 being able to create a planet buster because she never made an explodey blast and was not trained in the same way as Goku/Krillen/Vegeta/Piccolo,etc. who have proven they can basically do what everyone else does, but we do know her lasts have a lot of potency. As far as speed, we know that Vegeta was going all out against her and she casually kept up, so she -has- to be at least his speed, at that point, while trying hard. We know that even without knowing how to use ki, she also tanked what he and Trunks put out as well, so she gets spotted that. We know from the guy who MADE her, that she was more powerful than he was even after sucking out loads of ki from people, so we have knowledgeable statements.

You're a beautiful man for saving me the time abmccray. Beat me to it.

However...

Given that, what actual feats does Android 18 have that show she can take what Bubbles can dish out?

Both Abm and I already addressed 18's power. Her blasts hurt class 100 bricks just fine(and showed to outright maim and kill them in regards to Future Trunks' timeline), and physical abilities, as detailed by Abm; are more than capable of trashing any of the characters shown in the previous sagas.

The question is; what feats does Bubbles have that show she can dish out anything that would even harm 18?

What actual speed feats does she have that show she can even perceive Bubbles?

Abm got that, so I'll leave it. But a question to add onto it; what speed feats does Bubbles have that show she can even move fast enough to keep up with 18? Again; outside of that one racing feat, what speed feats does she have that aren't flying travel speed feats involving them going in a straight line?

[The Drunkard Kid]

Everyone else seems to gotten the meat of the argument, so I guess I'll address a couple of the potatoes, namely how dust and water were moving around at notable speeds even though they should have been still in the superspeed fights and how Goku ran out of breath underwater due to exertion in short order even though he was ostensibly working at superspeed.

The first point is pretty much bog standard in almost all portrayals of superspeed. Superman's cape flaps and Wonder Woman's hair twists in breezes that shouldn't exist at the speeds they fight at. Even extremely good showings like Fox Quicksilver's blitz sequences in Days of Future Past and Apocalypse head him using a Walkman to listen to entire songs in a fraction of a second.

For the second, that's how breathing works. It shouldn't matter how fast you can travel, you would still need to fuel your actions with a comparative amount of breathing; if anything, exerting yourself at full speed would make you run out of breath much faster than normal. Heck, speedster characters being able to breathe while standing still would actually be a nibble on the previous potato, since the air surrounding their mouths should rapidly be emptied of oxygen, which should take a comparative lifetime to drift back in. Heck, every exhalation should be coming out fast enough to blow holes in the countryside, if it weren't for the standard suspension of disbelief.

[Estrecca]

Abm got that, so I'll leave it. But a question to add onto it; what speed feats does Bubbles have that show she can even move fast enough to keep up with 18? Again; outside of that one racing feat, what speed feats does she have that aren't flying travel speed feats involving them going in a straight line?

She benefits to some extent from the feat pool of her sisters, so Blossom collecting literally every bug from a plague infesting all of Metroville in a matter of moments probably is relevant enough to mention.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

That's is true, as the girls were made the same way and have the same level of stats, a speed feat for one should be a speed feat for the others.

[The MunchKING]

She benefits to some extent from the feat pool of her sisters, so Blossom collecting literally every bug from a plague infesting all of Metroville in a matter of moments probably is relevant enough to mention.

Or the time she kicked everything into slo-mo version, read everything in Mojo's extremely long-winded gun name, and out ran electrons before the could hit Buttercup?

[StupidMoniker]

Those explanations basically boil down to nuh uh, DB doesn't have to have actual feats because Dragonball. You are literally taking the showing I was complaining about being used to prove her durability, and using it as the only feat to prove her durability (blocking the sword). You say the objective measures that disprove that they are always moving at superspeed should just be ignored, when that is that premise upon which nearly everyone in DB's speed feats are based. Unless there are feats posted for Android 18 that show her having speed and durability to survive Bubbles' blitz (vid earlier in this thread), I say Bubble's wins. Don't bother showing fights Android had with other people whose feats are based on what those people did to other people that did whatever to other people.

[Cody]

Those explanations basically boil down to nuh uh, DB doesn't have to have actual feats because Dragonball.

You'd have to virtually ignore everything that was said to come to this conclusion. When it is a consistent portrayal of how the characters work, and when one character outright shows to be vastly physically superior to the guys who can trash Frieza; then it is consistent with what is seen in the show and how the characters operate.

You are literally taking the showing I was complaining about being used to prove her durability, and using it as the only feat to prove her durability (blocking the sword).

It wasn't the only feat that supports her impressive durability; as pointed out already. She took everything Vegeta threw at her with no damage. The same Vegeta who was noted, and shown to be more powerful than either Goku and Trunks at that time.

You say the objective measures that disprove that they are always moving at superspeed should just be ignored,

No. We are saying that those incidents you mentioned were either non-canon; or no more proof of anything than Superman and Wonder Womans capes and hairs flowing in the wind despite them moving at superspeed, Quicksilver using a walkie while running around all over the place, etc.

when that is that premise upon which nearly everyone in DB's speed feats are based.

Not true. The speed feats are based on what we have seen them accomplished. Hazard has a thread dedicated to DB feats, including speed feats. Then you have the characters outright blitzing one another and it goes up from there.

Unless there are feats posted for Android 18 that show her having speed and durability to survive Bubbles' blitz (vid earlier in this thread),

Already explained. Her taking everything Vegeta threw at her, casually keeping up with him, and outright dominating him when she actually put some effort into it, is a showing within itself. And we know how impressive of a showing that is due to how powerful the character she beat is, and that nothing contradicts it since that is how powerful she is. That was her first showing, and nothing contradicts it.

Unlike Bubbles; who, along with her sisters, have a ton of low showings to contradict her speed feats.

I say Bubble's wins.

Her lack of durability and strength feats say otherwise, regardless of what you are trying to claim for speed here for both characters.

Don't bother showing fights Android had with other people whose feats are based on what those people did to other people that did whatever to other people.

18 has the feats she has from her fights. And those feats are impressive due to the people she has fought, and their collective feats.

She treated class 100 bricks like utter garbage with all of her attacks and flat out ignored Vegetas best attacks. Bubbles doesn't even have anything to suggest she could take anything 18 can dish out, and has nothing to suggest she could even remotely harm 18. While that one speed feat she has? Is contradicted dozens upon dozens of times. While 18s isn't.

She benefits to some extent from the feat pool of her sisters, so Blossom collecting literally every bug from a plague infesting all of Metroville in a matter of moments probably is relevant enough to mention.

Then she would also gain their low end showings as well. If they are all equal; then they would suffer from the same thing as they all have far more consistent low end showings than they do high end showings.

[StupidMoniker]

So fights alone are now enough to grant people speed, strength and durability feats? If so, Deathstroke the Terminator is going to go up in stats around here by a great deal. He is faster than Flash, survives hits from Superboy, and can lay into any number of the Teen Titans. In Identity Crisis alone he takes it to a Flash, a Green Lantern, and Zatanna in one go. Never mind that he has no equivalent feats outside of fights, right? Cap and Spider-man both have feats of hurting Hulk with their attacks. The Androids didn't pop up in a single issue, never to be seen again. Android 18 appeared numerous times, and is still showing up in Super. Handwaving her fight based feats like some one off villain should not fly.

[Cody]

So fights alone are now enough to grant people speed, strength and durability feats?

When all of the characters feats comes from their fights? Yes. She has 2 fights in the entire series, 3 if you include the one her counterpart was involved in when Trunks killed the androids of his time. All the feats she has? Are from those fights. And we see what she is capable of in those fights.

If so, Deathstroke the Terminator is going to go up in stats around here by a great deal. He is faster than Flash, survives hits from Superboy, and can lay into any number of the Teen Titans. In Identity Crisis alone he takes it to a Flash, a Green Lantern, and Zatanna in one go. Never mind that he has no equivalent feats outside of fights, right? Cap and Spider-man both have feats of hurting Hulk with their attacks. The Androids didn't pop up in a single issue, never to be seen again. Android 18 appeared numerous times, and is still showing up in Super. Handwaving her fight based feats like some one off villain should not fly.

These events aren't really comparable as we go by high end consistent feats here. Slades consistent showings don't spot him the reactions needed to tag the Flash. 18 has nothing to contradict her showings as all of her showings comes from the few fights she was in. And unlike the fights you referenced; none of her fights had PIS/CIS/SMvFL going on for them. Thus the comparison is hardly the same.

[The Drunkard Kid]

So fights alone are now enough to grant people speed, strength and durability feats? If so, Deathstroke the Terminator is going to go up in stats around here by a great deal. He is faster than Flash, survives hits from Superboy, and can lay into any number of the Teen Titans. In Identity Crisis alone he takes it to a Flash, a Green Lantern, and Zatanna in one go. Never mind that he has no equivalent feats outside of fights, right? Cap and Spider-man both have feats of hurting Hulk with their attacks. The Androids didn't pop up in a single issue, never to be seen again. Android 18 appeared numerous times, and is still showing up in Super. Handwaving her fight based feats like some one off villain should not fly.

Let's say that Character A has existed in comics for decades but more or less retired from active duty after a few issues so that their only combat relevant feats are keeping pace with and tanking a full out punch in the face from a full out Zod without even blinking, and then subsequently breaking his arm with a single strike, then had, oh let's say, 616 Thor break Mjolnir on their arm without even leaving a bruise. And very shortly prior to that, the same writer, in the same arc, had Zod rip the arms off of another character (who was explicitly described as being much weaker than Character A by the person who built both of them) that had ignored being chucked heard enough to make a distant mountain explode and was in the process of amping his own stats while rapidly draining the Solar power out of Zod's cells at the time and had Thor use Mjolnir to casually paste an amped up and berserk version of a guy who had, in the arc immediately proceeding this one, which was also written by the same guy, taken no apparent injury from a solidly class 100 strike or from being on an exploding planet while mostly unpowered and completely drained/almost dead, respectively. And narratively, Character A is explicitly designed to kill Superman and is also stated to be explicitly stronger than the alternate universe version that had killed Zod and a few of his peers with relative ease.

After those feats, Character A mostly decides to go on a road trip with their family, gets eaten and then puked out by, I dunno, Thanos until the end of the arc. Their next appearance (in an arc where they are barely even shown) has them explicitly holding back as much as they can to (poorly) infiltrate a muggle boxing match which they deliberately throw in exchange for a massive bribe, with the closest thing they have to a relevant feat at all being the ability to throw their spouse's signature, extremely lethal technique with enough precision to separate two surprisingly strong but vagely feated Kryptonian who were explicitly coming at Character A at full power. After that, Character A occasionally shows up, but not in any particularly combat relevant way.

Would you say that the lack of explicit weightlifting or high speed macrame feats would mean that Daredevil's shown ability to flip a limo and deflect bullets would let him blitzstomp someone whose only stat-feats are casually punking Kryptonians and ignoring strikes strong enough to cause a class-100-swatting weapon to break?

[StupidMoniker]

I would say Character A is probably not a good character to use on Rumbles, because they are very sparse on feats despite having a good deal of source material in which they appear. Their only feats appear to be in a couple of fights in which they are introduced, then they spent the remainder of their time operating at a much lower level. As such, Character A doesn't have the feats to make them superior to Daredevil, and should thus lose to Daredevil, and the initial fight should probably just be discounted.

[Anarchist]

Android 18 doesn`t have any KI, does she?
So she`s a special case.

Anyway, another DBZ thread derailed.
Really getting tired of this.

[buutenks]

Android 18 doesn`t have any KI, does she?
So she`s a special case.

Anyway, another DBZ thread derailed.
Really getting tired of this.

Erm she has ki...

She can fire ki blasts just fine. Reason why the z fighters cannot detect her is because her ki is generated artificially.

As for feats.

18 showed she is more durable than freeza and any ssj at that time. She broke ssj vegeta's arm with one kick, took a ki blast to the face, which was fired by ssj vegeta and was unharmed. And she was able to keep up and even out pace a ssj in h2h combat.

What feats do you want?

Stupidmoniker, you r simply nitpicking...