"Captain America: Steve Rogers" Reveals Cap's Shocking [Spoiler]

[Jack Flag]

I know this will get retconed immediately, but its still really piasing me off.

And I like Rick Flag, so if he really is dead, I'm gonna be mad.

I, Jack Flag, am alive but this is just BS retconning or a BS publicity stunt. And Marvel, Hydra is post WW2. TV's agents of SHIELD made up teh fact that HYDRA may go back hundreds of years , but Hydra was invented post Nazis. It was created by the defeated remnants of the Axis powers to continue the aims of WW2. That is a cool origin story. To have Hydra exist before WW2 in the new Cap comic is just lazy storytelling.

[Jack Flag]

And what if the story will reveal him to be a true hero once again ? (by having him breaking free of manipulation because of his strong will, or by showing he took insane risks to infiltrate an evil organization...).

It is still stupid because it makes Hydra exist before WW2. Hydra was born after WW2 when what was left of the defeated Axis powers of Germany and Japan formed Hydra. To make Hydra pre WW2 and in the case of the TV show Agents of SHIELD, have Hydra exist for hundreds of years is just the height of retcon suck by lazy writers for lazy fans.

[Darthkostis]

I, Jack Flag, am alive but this is just BS retconning or a BS publicity stunt. And Marvel, Hydra is post WW2. TV's agents of SHIELD made up teh fact that HYDRA may go back hundreds of years , but Hydra was invented post Nazis. It was created by the defeated remnants of the Axis powers to continue the aims of WW2. That is a cool origin story. To have Hydra exist before WW2 in the new Cap comic is just lazy storytelling.

Uh, yeah, no. No, no. That's been canon since 2009 or so. Read Hickman's Shield and Secret Warriors, books which turned HYDRA into a much more interesting organization. So, yeah...

[Jack Flag]

Well when he was created the character by default ascribed to one side of the political spectrum. Remember there was a very strong pro-Nazi sentiment in the United States at the time so a comic were a super hero was fighting nazis and punching Adolph Hitler was definitely putting the character one one side of politics. So much so that Timely got threats about it and for a time had to have police to protect their offices.

I don't want to tell anyone who feels that this is disrespectful to the character's Jewish creators they are wrong. They are of course entitled to that view but I will say that a hero being brainwashed or somehow coerced into joining the villains is a very established trope in fiction. Admittedly I'm not a huge reader of Captain America, certain runs I've followed but I would be willing to bet this isn't the first time something like this has happened to Steve Rogers. In fact someone on another board has posted this that shows Cap being brainwashed by the Red Skull into being a Nazi right down to doing a Nazi salute and I doubt anyone was ever up in arms about this story.

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Having a hero be brainwashed is indeed a trope. But to make Hydra have dealings with Steve's mom is just bullshit. Hydra was created after the wreckage of WW2 by the remnants of Axis forces. I have been reading comics since I was a kid in the lat 70s - and while some retcons are needed and successful - this is retconning history they came up for Hydra is just BS.

[Darthkostis]

Having a hero be brainwashed is indeed a trope. But to make Hydra have dealings with Steve's mom is just bullshit. Hydra was created after the wreckage of WW2 by the remnants of Axis forces. I have been reading comics since I was a kid in the lat 70s - and while some retcons are needed and successful - this is retconning history they came up for Hydra is just BS.

Just because you, personally, don't like it, which is within your rights, doesn't make it "BS". A whole lot of people loved Hickman's retcon and general work on both books.

[Jack Flag]

Uh, yeah, no. No, no. That's been canon since 2009 or so. Read Hickman's Shield and Secret Warriors, books which turned HYDRA into a much more interesting organization. So, yeah...

I have been reading comics since the late 70s when I was a kid so **** the 2009 retcon. It made Hydra a less interesting organization disconnected from reality. The genius of the original Marvel as that it was rooted in "reality". WW2 was a real thing. Now I have to pretend that Hydra is like the mythical Illuminati Free Masons that go back to the Middle Ages,. **** that.

Hydra comes from that time in history where there were Nazi rat lines of escaped SS officers to Latin America and the possibility Hitler himself may have escaped to Latin America, etc. The reality of individual Holocaust survivors or Israeli agents hunting down Nazi war criminals who may have lived in armed camps in the Amazon jungle or who now worked for the CIA or KGB.

That's fucking cool fiction/fact combo. The 2009 retcon of Hydra? Lazy writing. As if lazy Hickman listened to Alex Jones talk about jerkoff Freemason conspiracies that go back hundreds of years for inspiration.

[Darthkostis]

I have been reading comics since the late 70s when I was a kid so **** the 2009 retcon. It made Hydra a less interesting organization disconnected from reality. The genius of the original Marvel as that it was rooted in "reality". WW2 was a real thing. Now I have to pretend that Hydra is like the mythical Illuminati Free Masons that go back to the Middle Ages,. **** that.
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Hydra comes from that time in history where there were Nazi rat lines of escaped SS officers to Latin America and the possibility Hitler himself may have escaped to Latin America, etc. The reality of individual Holocaust survivors or Israeli agents hunting down Nazi war criminals who may have lived in armed camps in the Amazon jungle or who now worked for the CIA or KGB.
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That's fucking cool fiction/fact combo. The 2009 retcon of Hydra? Lazy writing.

You know, using the word "****" repeatedly and classifying fans as "lazy", just cause you don't agree with them, ain't making you look good. I liked the retcon a lot. I liked Hickman's work a lot. I really liked the fact that Da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Tesla, all of those had a role in both SHIELD and HYDRA. I really enjoyed his writting of Fury, which was very much in line with Steranko's stuff. Does that make me a "lazy" fan?

[Jack Flag]

You know, using the word "****" repeatedly and classifying fans as "lazy", just cause you don't agree with them, ain't making you look good. I liked the retcon a lot. I liked Hickman's work a lot. I really liked the fact that Da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Tesla, all of those had a role in both SHIELD and HYDRA. I really enjoyed his writting of Fury, which was very much in line with Steranko's stuff. Does that make me a "lazy" fan?

<i>I really liked the fact that Da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Tesla, all of those had a role in both SHIELD and HYDRA.</i> Vomit inducing and un-original drek. That is Da Vinci code rip off stupidity - that is where I get the lazy from - ripping off the Da Vinci code for Hydra and SHIELD. Lazy is as lazy does. Sorry, mate.

[Darthkostis]

<i>I really liked the fact that Da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Tesla, all of those had a role in both SHIELD and HYDRA.</i> Vomit inducing and un-original drek. That is Da Vinci code rip off stupidity - that is where I get the lazy from - ripping off the Da Vinci code for Hydra and SHIELD. Lazy is as lazy does. Sorry, mate.

Again, it's your opinion, not a fact. Hickman's work on Secret Warriors, which contained surprises within surprises, the newly created characters like Kraken or Hive and the general writting was, IMO at least, brilliant. If you, personally, don't like it, that's cool. But do not treat your very own, very personal opinion as fact. It's not.

[Jack Flag]

**** yes it is my opinion and my dollars also. And I plan on not expending this money on Marvel's new Cap which looks like an unoriginal rip off of "Total Recall".

[Jack Flag]

Again, it's your opinion, not a fact. Hickman's work on Secret Warriors, which contained surprises within surprises, the newly created characters like Kraken or Hive and the general writting was, IMO at least, brilliant. If you, personally, don't like it, that's cool. But do not treat your very own, very personal opinion as fact. It's not.

Only you freaked out and seemed to think I was stating anything else than a strong opinion. Yes, it's my opinion the retcon history of Hydra is bullshit. I offer reasons why it is bullshit - it diminishes WW2 and the holocaust and makes WW2 seem the creation of some multi generational secret society. The old Hydra being the result of WW2 alone - created by the worst humans on earth that emerged from WW2 lent some danger to the stories. By making Hydra something that goes back to the bronze age is just silly and lazy - in my opinion.

[Hulkout42]

Oh for Gos sakes! Why Marvel? Why i ask must we go through this again? First Superior Spider-fake? Then Crazy Cyclops? Then Evil Stark and Havok? And now this!?

[EmeraldFox]

I read a news article about this online and the comments to the article were from outrage to comments about the writers behind this being unamerican to simply Marvel being money grabbing and coming up with this because dc is currently coming out with dc universe rebirth. My opinion? How the writers got this past the main bosses at Marvel is byond me. Captain America is like a national icon for America and what it originally stands for. Freedom, democracy, freedom of religion and thought and speech. For Marvel to do this is utterly disgusting in my opinion

[neonrideraryeh]

This whole thing is hilarious as so many people are overreacting. Nick Spencer is telling a story and that story will end and things will go back to normal when they answer the mystery of the story. Would Hydra really design a guy who kicks their butts for 75 years? If he really was Hydra, I think he decisions in the past would have been very different. Like he would have been pro-registration so corrupt governments could control heroes, but instead he was about freedom. Also, with things like Kobik around having changed him, there are possible reasons as to why this is happening. People getting annoyed over a story arc that won't last is a waste of these people's time. Complain about something that might last slightly longer instead.

[Nelson]

Get over it.
This is a great plot, you don't know what you are talking about.
It fits perfectly with his character.
You are at fault for liking character that was always meant to become a villain. It was only a matter of time.
Captain America sounds more like a villain name anyway.
He will make great archnemesis for Nick Fury.

I wonder how many people will realize what I'm referencing.