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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosarev View Post
    It's exactly the same case. Changing a character's sexuality with years of backstory without making any sense to pander to an extreme minority.


    And I would like to know when will be enough representation, taking into account they are an extreme minority. We don't have any orthodox Jewish superhero in comics, do they deserve one? And Tamils? And Kurds? I would say there are quite a lot of LGBT heroes already, and the focus should be in other people first (I would say Africa, Asia and South America have it worse on that department).

    Well technically MCU Cap doesn't have years of backstory...well okay he has like 6 years (didn't CA:FA come out in 2010?) of backstory but he isn't the same thing as comic book Cap. Just to be clear.

    And who are an "extreme minority" (and in what sociopolitical context are you referring to? the US?)? The LGBT community? Or people who want Cap to date Bucky?

    Just trying to see where the grounds for an argument against representation is coming from.

    I agree with the other poster who wants Bucky and Cap to stay friends just because it represents a great example of male friendship. But alot of these arguments against it are just ridiculous as those who want to change the pairing...if not somewhat worse because of the other implications.
    Last edited by MaxMatrix; 05-26-2016 at 06:48 AM.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Fist View Post
    Make new characters that don't get anywhere near as many chances to succeed because they're new. Nah.

    Straight characters exist because the creators refused to include any LGBT minorities at the time of creation due to their own and societies homophobia. Same can be said for a lack of people of colour, and if adapting them this late to fix their biases then count me in.

    We're not going to miss seeing yet another heteronormative plotline.
    So your saying there is not enough interest to support an LGBT character? Because if the audience was enough I would figure the new character would do fine.

    Anytime you attempt to usurp an already established character the resistance will be enormous. Make one of your own and everyone will be fine.

    Example: Poe Dameron. Maybe he's gay, we don't know his back story enough. OK you can make a case for that.

    Captain America? Nothing in his 75 years of backstory to justify this.

  3. #93
    Beefcake <3 Monpochi's Avatar
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    I've seen a counter-argument into this in Tumblr, about it being beyond the shippers' desire for Steve X Bucky to be canon, but it's really the dryness of LGBTQA representation in Marvel as a whole. (Heck, before we know it the Thor x Loki shippers might be next to do a movement... which I do not approve of because I love Thor and I want him to be mine lolz)

    Which I tend to agree on, as much as I want LGBT characters in Marvel (me being gay as well), I do not like it when they turn an established character to LGBTQA and make a lot of bruhaha into it. It just seems so fleeting in doing this. I'd rather we have more cases like Wiccan and Hulkling, new characters that are from the get go LGBTQA.

  4. #94
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    They have already established that Steve and Sharon will be a couple. No to mention Natasha and Bcky will become one as well at some point. Why not push for Northstar to be in the comics? I mean how many Wolverine movies were there and not one mention of Alpha Flight? Trying to change an already established heterosexual character as homosexual just to make yourselves feel better is ridiculous. I am Native American and Mexican but I don't think they should change the color of Cap's skin to make him more like my people because we have no representation in these movies (well barely we did have Warpath but he had very little screen time). Besides Sebastian Stan is all for a Bucky/Widow relationship. He and Anthony Mackie have been fighting over her in the press interviews for Civil War LOL.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monpochi View Post
    I've seen a counter-argument into this in Tumblr, about it being beyond the shippers' desire for Steve X Bucky to be canon, but it's really the dryness of LGBTQA representation in Marvel as a whole. (Heck, before we know it the Thor x Loki shippers might be next to do a movement... which I do not approve of because I love Thor and I want him to be mine lolz)

    Which I tend to agree on, as much as I want LGBT characters in Marvel (me being gay as well), I do not like it when they turn an established character to LGBTQA and make a lot of bruhaha into it. It just seems so fleeting in doing this. I'd rather we have more cases like Wiccan and Hulkling, new characters that are from the get go LGBTQA.
    Yes lets include the established LGBT characters, and make new ones. I think the LGBT community will meet very little resistance to this, certainly not from me.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeaponX View Post
    Sorry but that's a convenient way to have your cake an eat it too. I can change any character I want because there are a lot of straight white characters but you can't touch mine because they are so few and special. And while I am indifferent to cap becoming gay it doesn't lessen n how disappointing it might be to his fans to have to give up their favorite character to balance some imaginary scale.
    You seem awfully confused as I am not gay so changing a gay Hulking has nothing to do with him being mine because I could give two shits about Hulking as a character. So you need to stop getting emotional and listen to the argument and not make it personal. I am not advocating a position that benefits me because I am straight dude. I am trying to be objective about a situation that is the natural reality of the world we live in.

    Further, I am not suggesting it wouldn't be disappointing to the people that love Cap as a straight dude. However, it was disappointing that these characters were created in a world that discriminated against minorities and gay people in the first place so you focusing on people's individual disappointment over a single character versus the collective disappointment of an group of minorities seems odd to me. At the end of the day, a straight white dude has plenty of heroes to turn to so while I get he might be disappointed about this one character, that doesn't overrule everyone else's disappointment.

    Case in point, my favorite character is Gambit. Given his ladies man status, I would hate for him to be gay. At the end of the day though, if they made him gay, I would rant or complain about it but that is because I am biased with regards to Gambit as a character. At the same time, the part of me that attempts to look at things objectively would look at it and as long as it was a well written story then so be it because as an adult, I understand my personal preferences and biases sometimes have to make way for something that benefits people more from an objective standpoint.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  7. #97
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Fist View Post
    Glad it's getting more traction, be nice if Marvel recognised their lack of LGBT representation in the movies and made this change.
    Agreed, sadly they have proven those high up (at the films and comics) simply don't think about or care enough to support LGBT characters. Oh well... Nothing new there. Gay characters can't even get a solo series. Any movie representation is just a pipe dream.

    P.S. still this does make me chuckle, if only to see the Internet rage
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  8. #98
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mournblade94 View Post
    So your saying there is not enough interest to support an LGBT character? Because if the audience was enough I would figure the new character would do fine.

    Anytime you attempt to usurp an already established character the resistance will be enormous. Make one of your own and everyone will be fine.

    Example: Poe Dameron. Maybe he's gay, we don't know his back story enough. OK you can make a case for that.

    Captain America? Nothing in his 75 years of backstory to justify this.
    Cap doesn't have 75 years of backstory. The movie Cap is different from comic book cap. It's an alternate universe and there is no reason in an alternate universe, they can't have a gay Captain America. They had a gay Wolverine in one of the AU stories of the X-men and they have a Lady Thor. So the movies are free to establish their own canon. If you want comic book canon then go read the comics.

    That is not to say, Cap has to be gay because as I said, I am indifferent but your argument really makes no logical sense in the context of a movie Universe that fundamentally is not the 616. Now if you want to argue that in the movie verse, Cap appeared to love women because of his relationship with the Carter women then that is a logical argument with respect to the universe the movies currently take place in.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-26-2016 at 01:10 PM.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  9. #99
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    Make your own gay character or bi character, don't change the orientation of an established heterosexual character.

  10. #100
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomServofan View Post
    Make your own gay character or bi character, don't change the orientation of an established heterosexual character.
    None of the created LGBT characters get put in the movies as LGBT. We made them, they don't get used. So what should we do now?

    Loki isn't outed. We're told "no space lesbians". And Wiccan and Hulkling have no chance of being used without fundamentally changing their history (or in Teddy's case removing Skrull everything because Fox has those rights). Do you not object to the complete absence of open LGBT characters in the movies?
    Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 05-26-2016 at 01:48 PM.
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  11. #101
    Incredible Member Forseti's Avatar
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    Make your own movies?

  12. #102
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forseti View Post
    Make your own movies?
    Separate movies? Really? Why stop there? Seperate movie theatres? (sarcasm). I don't think the answer should ever be separation and societal segregation. Surely you would agree?
    Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 05-26-2016 at 02:04 PM.
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  13. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forseti View Post
    Make your own movies?
    Right, because it's always that easy.

    I don't want them to make Stucky a thing (though I wouldn't mind Steve being bisexual), but surely you can see the social and structural factors that make just 'using a gay character' or 'making your own movie' insanely more difficult than doing so for straight white characters, right?

    These aren't arthouse movies that take large risks, they're carefully constructed, major-market products. Instead of everyone getting insanely angry at the thought of a gay character, we should be asking why it seems so difficult to bring one to the big screen, and without contemplating the need to make changes to established characters, and trying to do something about those reasons.

    Or, even accept the areas in which things aren't actually all that established, and be open to character exploration and the potential character development that can bring.

  14. #104
    Incredible Member Forseti's Avatar
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    Separate movies? What does that mean?

    Aren't all movies separate movies if they aren't tied together in some specific way such as being sequels?

  15. #105
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forseti View Post
    Separate movies? What does that mean?

    Aren't all movies separate movies if they aren't tied together in some specific way such as being sequels?
    Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't you just describe the MCU?
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

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