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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by ouroboros View Post
    But the implication in the sentence is that the "anti-diversities" (as I've dubbed them) is that they want to keep POC characters marginal.
    I'm not seeing a lot of evidence that suggests otherwise.

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by ouroboros View Post
    Therefore we don't agree when you claim that the question of a character's race shouldn't be a conversation at all. I think one may fairly object that the level of this particular conversation was superficial, and that the remarks about the game-company being PC had nothing to back them up. But I printed the excerpts to illustrate that the posters had some motive beyond racism, like the one who opined that there was a disconnect when black audiences could complain about white characters but not vice versa...

    But I don't think you've potrayed any of the anti-diversity voices as being INDIVIDUAL, but as representatives of a social syndrome.
    I think that this is a good a place to find common ground as any -- and I agree with you regarding the fact that "race" should be a matter of conversation in some instances -- it's just the inherent criticism that often comes when a "minority" character is made the lead of a "mainstream" venture that I find problematic.

    That said, I can see your counter-point regarding "racebending" characters like Iron Fist, even if I think compromise -- such as having a bi-racial character -- is a completely acceptable alternative in his case, given the lack of prominent Asian male characters on the Marvel roster.

    And yes, I do see racism against non-whites (such as Asians) as part of a much larger social syndrome... primarily because said syndrome (i.e. "white" and often "male" supremacy) has already been hand-tailored into the fabric of our society -- if we were living in a society where equality were already a reality then I might agree that neither "side" is more "problematic" than the other... but the reality is that racism is something that has traditionally been aimed at 'non-whites' in our society, and to pretend otherwise is to deny reality.

    Is said "white supremacy" less problematic in our society today than it was in the past?

    Certainly... but it is still problematic, regardless.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 06-18-2016 at 06:25 PM.

  3. #198

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheInvisibleMan View Post
    I am of the opinion that for many comic book fans, if it isn't a character they can project onto, as a white hetero man, they could care less what happens to the character
    But what you're describing now is indifference. That's a little different from someone wanting to marginalize the members of a perceived outgroup.

    I realize that the end-result may be the same. I think it's sometimes possible to take counter-actions, as with 'voting with your wallet," against overt forms of marginalization. You can't really *make* anyone care about members of perceived outgroups, though.

    Even if one concedes-- as I have on this thread, at least twice-- that a "POC version" or "female version" of a male hetero character may be an interesting experiment, I think the majority of fans perceive it as compulsion rather than as leveling the playing field; as attempts to MAKE them like Miles Morales or Yolanda Montez.

    I freely admit I don't have any solutions. I can only suggest, as I did before, that outgroup revisions of popular characters don't seem to meet with a lot of success, unless, as I mentioned before, you're revising a character like Original Mister Terrific, whom almost no one cared about.

    I'll admit I don't follow a lot of current comics, though, so feel free to cite examples of successful revisions. I did hear that Female Thor sold well for a while, but whether it continued to do, some of you would know better than I.

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by ouroboros View Post
    I'll admit I don't follow a lot of current comics, though, so feel free to cite examples of successful revisions. I did hear that Female Thor sold well for a while, but whether it continued to do, some of you would know better than I.
    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...6/2016-05.html

    Here's the list for May -- Thor, Spider-Gwen and Spider-Miles, All-New Avengers are at around 50K, while Silk, Gwenpool, Ms. Marvel and All-New Wolverine are all at around 30-40K, while Black Panther is around 80K... all well above cancellation levels (and more "traditional" books like Daredevil, Venom, Moon Knight, Aquaman, Flash, and Green Lantern).

    As far as wallets go -- these comics are all selling at around $4 an issue (vs. DC's upcoming $3 an issue reboot) which is a nice profit... and that's before you throw in digitals and trades.

    Likewise, it depends on what you think of as being successful -- many people would consider The Ultimtates, Squirrel and Moon Girl, Vision, and Weirdworld to be some of the best books Marvel has put out in a long time, despite not selling as much as Miles Morales or Gwen Stacy.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 06-20-2016 at 10:52 PM.

  5. #200
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    If it sold comics, there would be nothing to debate.

    If the comics companies didn't insist on changing the sexuality and ethnicity of existing characters, there would also be nothing tko debate.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    If it sold comics, there would be nothing to debate.

    If the comics companies didn't insist on changing the sexuality and ethnicity of existing characters, there would also be nothing tko debate.
    1) Good stories, good creative teams and and good marketing are what sells comics, not just 'diversity" (or the lack thereof).

    2) I've already posted plenty of evidence -- including my previous post -- that these comics are selling, so you are right: there shouldn't be a debate here.

    But facts don't seem to matter to those who refuse to admit that Black Panther is the top-selling comic of the year and Miles Morales and Gwen Stacy are consistently outselling books that are not as "diverse" (also listed above).

    Rebirth will no doubt give DC a temporary boost, but as it stands the FACTS show that books like Thor, Spider-Gwen, Spider-Miles and every other book I listed above are doing better than most other titles that aren't Batman or Spider-man.

    Given said FACTS, the "debate" should be over... but apparently there are some here who won't let facts get in the way of their opinions.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 06-21-2016 at 07:10 AM.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    If it sold comics, there would be nothing to debate.
    Hahaha, suuuuuuure there wouldn't. Says the guy who once argued Mike Grell's 80 issue and a mini Green Arrow wasn't successful.


    When people don't like something, namely a creative direction, they will FIND things to debate.
    "Race is a social construct, they say. And I remind them that money is a social construct, too. Social constructs have power." — DeRay Mckesson

  8. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...6/2016-05.html

    Here's the list for May -- Thor, Spider-Gwen and Spider-Miles, All-New Avengers are at around 50K, while Silk, Gwenpool, Ms. Marvel and All-New Wolverine are all at around 30-40K, while Black Panther is around 80K... all well above cancellation levels (and more "traditional" books like Daredevil, Venom, Moon Knight, Aquaman, Flash, and Green Lantern).

    As far as wallets go -- these comics are all selling at around $4 an issue (vs. DC's upcoming $3 an issue reboot) which is a nice profit... and that's before you throw in digitals and trades.

    Likewise, it depends on what you think of as being successful -- many people would consider The Ultimtates, Squirrel and Moon Girl, Vision, and Weirdworld to be some of the best books Marvel has put out in a long time, despite not selling as much as Miles Morales or Gwen Stacy.
    At the same time, POC revisions do fail at times, and those cancellations may not be because a given revision lacked a certain level of quality, but *may* be because the majority of fans didn't support the revised character.

    I don't agree with the implication of the OP: that even *if* the racial majority of the US can be defined as "white," that would ipso facto mean that all white people will want white characters.

    That said, a given fan may like Steve Rogers as Captain America, and will not like anyone replacing him, black or white. That would not automatically be racism, though I have seen one essay argue to that effect.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by ouroboros View Post
    At the same time, POC revisions do fail at times, and those cancellations may not be because a given revision lacked a certain level of quality, but *may* be because the majority of fans didn't support the revised character.

    I don't agree with the implication of the OP: that even *if* the racial majority of the US can be defined as "white," that would ipso facto mean that all white people will want white characters.

    That said, a given fan may like Steve Rogers as Captain America, and will not like anyone replacing him, black or white. That would not automatically be racism, though I have seen one essay argue to that effect.
    The Captain America argument is a common -- and somewhat valid -- one in that no one likes seeing their favorite characters replaced.

    The larger issue, however, is that this has happened plenty of times before -- usually with "white" male characters like Bucky, Otto Octavius, Dick Grayson or Ben 'O Reilly -- and that you can often get a good story out of it, which is the goal of any writer regardless of who he or she is writing about... thus, what's good for Thunderbolt Ross is also good for Amadeus Cho.

    The "originals" always return, regardless, so it's really nothing to get all that worked up about -- two or three "lost years" out of 75 should not be that serious an issue.

    http://marvel.com/comics/issue/57864..._rogers_2016_1

    And you keep bringing a lot of outside arguments into this discussion -- no one here is arguing that everyone who doesn't like Sam as Cap is racist or that every "revised" character has to be universally loved, so why even bring that up?

    If your point is to show that some people have strong opinions about diversity -- both pro and con -- and that not everyone who doesn't support a "minority" book is "racist" then that's already a given.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 06-21-2016 at 09:03 PM.

  10. #205
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    That said, a given fan may like Steve Rogers as Captain America, and will not like anyone replacing him, black or white.
    You are missing one thing-REACTION.

    I put Bucky or US Agent in cap's outfit-you will get some anger and then folks will allow that story to be told to it's expected conclusion.

    Sam in that suit has been a battle from day one. We knew Steve was coming back but folks went nuts nonstop and ripped every little thing about Sam's book. We have had more reaction from 2 pages in Sam's book with 7 blacks than we have had about the book itself.

    We have seen fake fans come out of the wood work when a minority takes over. Who knew Moon Boy had that many fans to attack Moon Girl? He hasn't been around in years.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    If it sold comics, there would be nothing to debate.

    If the comics companies didn't insist on changing the sexuality and ethnicity of existing characters, there would also be nothing tko debate.
    As a Tumblr page said-

    White Nerd-Stop changing the race of established heroes-make NEW ones.

    Marvel & DC-here is Duke Thomas, Static, Moon Girl, Nighthawk, Vixen, Black Panther, Blue Marvel, Falcon, Mosaic & Luke Cage

    White Nerd-NOT interest! Agenda! PC! SJW! Obama!

    Marvel & Dc-so here's John Stewart & Sam Wilson as Captain America & Miles Morales

    White Nerd-NOT interest! Agenda! PC! SJW! Obama!

    Marvel & Dc-well stop complaining about 7-15 books out of the 150+ book we publish. If Vision is such a good book where are the fans? If Omega Men was a good book-where was the fans?

  12. #207
    Ultimate Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    This absolutely frustrates me, yeah.

    I dislike changing establishes heroes ethnicities or sexualities except in new versions of the character. I'd have LOVED Ultimate Peter Parker to be black, or half Hispanic/black like Miles Morales is now. I don't like redundant duplications of the characters (in the same universe) because I think /who/ Peter Parker is more important than what tone his skin is and I think having duplicate characters 'except X', is actually harmful and weakening to these characters on the whole.

    I WANT new heroes of color and diversity and I want them to be able to stand WITHOUT feeling the need to attach them to the identity of a white hero (as this practice, I think, also has some uncomfortable racial undertones) as the only way to get them to sell. Unfortunately, too many racist, white nerds are resistant to change, and worse, well.../racist/, so it makes it kind of necessary. I also kinda feel there's a bit of a problem with the idea of

    It's a frustrating thing.

    I wonder what we could learn in comparing sales of 'legacy' heroes of color versus new heroes of color, versus new white heroes.

    (Also, I freakin' love Kamala Khan.) <3
    Last edited by Tendrin; 06-21-2016 at 09:42 PM.

  13. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    The Captain America argument is a common -- and somewhat valid -- one in that no one likes seeing their favorite characters replaced.

    The larger issue, however, is that this has happened plenty of times before -- usually with "white" male characters like Bucky, Otto Octavius, Dick Grayson or Ben 'O Reilly -- and that you can often get a good story out of it, which is the goal of any writer regardless of who he or she is writing about... thus, what's good for Thunderbolt Ross is also good for Amadeus Cho.

    The "originals" always return, regardless, so it's really nothing to get all that worked up about -- two or three "lost years" out of 75 should not be that serious an issue.

    http://marvel.com/comics/issue/57864..._rogers_2016_1

    And you keep bringing a lot of outside arguments into this discussion -- no one here is arguing that everyone who doesn't like Sam as Cap is racist or that every "revised" character has to be universally loved, so why even bring that up?

    If your point is to show that some people have strong opinions about diversity -- both pro and con -- and that not everyone who doesn't support a "minority" book is "racist" then that's already a given.
    I don't understand the objection to "outside arguments." The OP implied that the poster was addressing all fannish reactions across the board, so why would we only be discussing things that persons on this thread have posted?

    Though, as a matter of record, Tendrin inadvertently referenced the racist accusation-- not clear if he believed himself or not-- when he wrote this:

    Unfortunately, too many racist, white nerds are resistant to change, and worse, well.../racist/, so it makes it kind of necessary.
    So, now it's on the thread, if it wasn't before.

    The only reason I've touched on this matter in previous posts is that I think it's important to suss out when such (difficult to prove) accusations contribute more heat than light. And the one essay to which I linked is far from the only one in which such accusations have been hurled.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by ouroboros View Post
    I don't understand the objection to "outside arguments." The OP implied that the poster was addressing all fannish reactions across the board, so why would we only be discussing things that persons on this thread have posted?
    Wasn't trying to object so much as trying to figure out what purpose they might serve -- it's a given that there are arguments out there that cover the whole spectrum of opinion so it doesn't really prove much one way or another to find one and quote it here without any real corresponding data that addresses the issue as a whole.

    It's a given that there are many people out there who are so "pro-diversity" that they want to see it in nearly everything that is produced, but that doesn't really supplement your arguments with regards to (most) people thinking someone is "racist" just because they don't want to read a book with Miles Morales or Kamala Khan in it.

    I see a lot of commentary about being "guilted" into reading certain books -- trust me, most of us who want to see more diversity out there are not so desperate that we need people (white or otherwise) to read books that they aren't interested in: if you don't want to buy and read Black Panther, Captain Marvel and/or The Ultimates, then don't buy them and/or read them. It's your money -- do what you want with it.

    I think the issue most people have, however, is that people will complain about these -- and "legacy" -- books under the umbrella of complaining about "forced diversity" despite never having read the books in question, which does in fact, come off as racist... or at the very least prejudiced and/or biased.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 06-23-2016 at 12:09 PM.

  15. #210
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    Personally, I don't have a problem with changing race or gender of a character. Thor was once a frog and replaced by a horse alien 30 years ago.

    I think what irritates people is that, in particular, Marvel will get a hit on something whether its a cross-over (Civil War), title descriptions (all-new) or a mass relaunching (Marvel Knights) and just repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat.... take a breath... repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. The decision makers at Marvel should stay away from dead horses (run, Beta Ray Bill, run).

    There's no real data only gut instinct; I think readers aren't really given time (considering 22-44 pages of decompressed story telling a month) to be introduced, digest and accept the changed character before everything reverts back just in time for a film. And, more likely, it's just resentment readership has smartening up to short term sales stunts that ultimately don't go anywhere.

    When DC does the same thing, it seemingly springs out of some overly convoluted continuity-driven editorial event. Or, they go in halfsies in a different universe.
    Last edited by John Aston; 06-23-2016 at 12:20 PM.

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