Debate on diversity in comics

[Trey Strain]

Proposed for debate:

"Diversity doesn't sell comics, and forcing it down readers' throats actually hurts the comics companies."

Let's hear your thoughts about that.

[MindofShadow]

1. Marvel is "forcing diversity down your throats." Marvel is DOMINATING the market share.

2. BP was the #1 selling title with 253k last month.

3. Poe Dameron was the #2

4. ANAD Avengers is selling well, despite the damn minorities being forced on the roster

5. Harley Quinn is DC's most reliable money maker right now outside of Batman. A bisexual (confirmed?) woman

6. Jane Thor, as much as she bores me, is selling better than real Thor has in a long time



So, those 6 things took me all of 2 seconds to find. Where is the evidence that "forcing Diversity" is hurting anything whatsoever?




"‘When You’re Accustomed to Privilege, Equality Feels Like Oppression’"

[aja_christopher]

Given the success of T'Challa, Jane, Miles, Kamala, Harley, Gwen (etc, etc, etc) I don't even think this is a 'debate' anymore.

Unless, of course, you just refuse to accept the obvious.

[MindofShadow]

Given the success of T'Challa, Jane, Miles, Kamala, Harley, Gwen (etc, etc, etc) I don't even think this is a 'debate' anymore.

Unless, of course, you just refuse to accept the obvious.

They even have Sam Wilson title that has been over the cut off line

Sam. Wilson.

[Mister Mets]

A debate on whether diverse characters are a good thing is kinda silly since there's a rather clear answer (yes!) It's good for readers to see themselves represented in the characters, and it's good for writers to be able to explore other kinds of stories.

I suppose the real debate is how you get to the diversity. A question that's more controversial is whether Marvel and DC should get rid of existing white male superheroes to make room for diverse replacements.

[jeanvaljean]

1. Marvel is "forcing diversity down your throats." Marvel is DOMINATING the market share.

2. BP was the #1 selling title with 253k last month.

3. Poe Dameron was the #2

4. ANAD Avengers is selling well, despite the damn minorities being forced on the roster

5. Harley Quinn is DC's most reliable money maker right now outside of Batman. A bisexual (confirmed?) woman

6. Jane Thor, as much as she bores me, is selling better than real Thor has in a long time



So, those 6 things took me all of 2 seconds to find. Where is the evidence that "forcing Diversity" is hurting anything whatsoever?




"‘When You’re Accustomed to Privilege, Equality Feels Like Oppression’"

How did that post not end the thread?

[MindofShadow]

I suppose the real debate is how you get to the diversity. A question that's more controversial is whether Marvel and DC should get rid of existing white male superheroes to make room for diverse replacements.

Has this actually happened though? At least at Marvel? They haven't gotten rid of anyone long term. Steve is already back powered. Thor was around for most of JaneThor's run and they clearly have plans for him based on recent issues. Parker is still the prominent SM despite Miles, Miguel, SpiderGwen, Silk being around. Kamala just took a name and has no other connections or similarities to Carol (and Carol is getting a push anyway). They "killed" Wolverine, btu then instantly brought in Old Man Logan, who is more like classic, popular Wolverine anyway and then gave the title X23. Banner is the only one that is MIA right now.

And the thing is... Steve, Thor, Banner, Parker have all been replaced before. Some very very recently. But instead of passing the title/name to another white dude (Bucky, Masterson and various aliens, Spock Ben Kaine, ect)... the passed the title to a underserved population in comics.

The only real character at Marvel I can think of that got kicked to the curb for a minority was Fury. But that was done for the movies, it had nothing to do with "lets add black people!"

[Double 0]

I refuse to debate about this. If you don't feel like the industry should be inclusionary, then we are on complete different wavelengths.

Fact: The Boys Club nature of the mainstream comic book industry severely undercut sales and is the reason why the industry is the way it is. If it had been more inclusionary in the first place, the medium would be more popular in general.

[JediMindTrick]

I suppose the real debate is how you get to the diversity. A question that's more controversial is whether Marvel and DC should get rid of existing white male superheroes to make room for diverse replacements.

Exactly.

Race and orientation swapping are the wrong ways to do it. Its lazy and it sends a message that diversity characters can only succeed if they start out as straight white characters. Look at how the Wally West thing blew up in DC's face to the point they've now mostly undone it. Promote existing characters (like Black Panther) or create new ones (like Ms Marvel) rather than race / orientation swap like with Wally West or Iceman. For every case of the big two doing it right there are cases of them doing it wrong. Had 2016 ideas existed back in 1975 then instead of Storm (Marvel's #1 female) we would have gotten a race swapped Polaris.

[JediMindTrick]

Has this actually happened though? At least at Marvel? They haven't gotten rid of anyone long term. Steve is already back powered. Thor was around for most of JaneThor's run and they clearly have plans for him based on recent issues. Parker is still the prominent SM despite Miles, Miguel, SpiderGwen, Silk being around. Kamala just took a name and has no other connections or similarities to Carol (and Carol is getting a push anyway). They "killed" Wolverine, btu then instantly brought in Old Man Logan, who is more like classic, popular Wolverine anyway and then gave the title X23. Banner is the only one that is MIA right now.

And the thing is... Steve, Thor, Banner, Parker have all been replaced before. Some very very recently. But instead of passing the title/name to another white dude (Bucky, Masterson and various aliens, Spock Ben Kaine, ect)... the passed the title to a underserved population in comics.

The only real character at Marvel I can think of that got kicked to the curb for a minority was Fury. But that was done for the movies, it had nothing to do with "lets add black people!"

Most of your examples are legacy issues. Those are 100% fine. Comics have a long tradition of one hero taking up the mantle of another. Barry Allen gives way to Wally West who in turn gave way to Bart Allen, etc. Its when the actual person gets swapped, like when Wally West was suddenly race swapped and de-aged into a minority caricature that people got angry.

[MindofShadow]

Most of your examples are legacy issues. Those are 100% fine. Comics have a long tradition of one hero taking up the mantle of another. Barry Allen gives way to Wally West who in turn gave way to Bart Allen, etc. Its when the actual person gets swapped, like when Wally West was suddenly race swapped and de-aged into a minority caricature that people got angry.

and once again....

How long did that last?

And DC is doing it wrong anyway. Like always.

[jeanvaljean]

I refuse to debate about this. If you don't feel like the industry should be inclusionary, then we are on complete different wavelengths.

Fact: The Boys Club nature of the mainstream comic book industry severely undercut sales and is the reason why the industry is the way it is. If it had been more inclusionary in the first place, the medium would be more popular in general.

And it actually was more inclusive before the comics code came.

[Surf]

Maybe the OP would like to expound on his experience with having something forced down ones throat. Such a seemingly uncomfortable and disparaging connotation to pin to a 'debate' over comic book characters. Which like those posted above isn't a debate at all.

I mean I've personally gotten a piece of a fish bone caught in my throat and that shit was pretty intense for about a half minute there. I was all like shit- it's getting tough to breath here with all this coughing and gasping, that was 20 years ago and over a tiny piece of bone. Surprisingly it was NOTHING at all like reading a comic book with a black dude as a superhero. In fact if the option were given to me to choke once a year or give away all my comics that didn't feature black superhero's, I'd be here- get these the f outta here.

[mathew101281]

1. The only time replacement characters really work...

When a long time sidekick takes up the mantle. (Wally West)

When the original concept was never that popular (mr. Terrific)

When the original character has successfully moved on to a more popular new moniker. (Miss Marvel)

2. When do replacement characters not work?

When a popular character is killed off just to be replaced by some new character no one has ever heard of or has no emotional attachment to.

When the original is so iconic that the replacement is going to be constantly compared to the original, thus not being aloud to develop its own flavor.

When the core concept really doesn't lend itself to a legacy. These kind of forced legacies can be contrived.

[Trey Strain]

Nobody is suggesting that it shouldn't be done. Just that it doesn't sell comics and that it can actually hurt if it's forced.