Ηow Will Alan Moore React Or Retaliate For DC Rebirth?

[colonyofcells]

Alan Moore does not seem to care about what dc does with his old superhero work. Alan Moore seems to prefer stories with endings rather than never ending soap operas. Alan Moore himself did write some superhero stories in the past with endings such as V For Vendetta, Watchmen, Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, etc. Manga stories also tend to have an ending.

[Ulysses]

Copy paste from another thread, partly because I'm starved for attention partly because it relates to this thread.

"About the Alan Moore thing: My take is that he did curse DC/WB. I know most people don't believe that magical attacks can have real effects but I tend to believe it because of the several thousand years of anecdotal evidence and about 150 years of empirical evidence (god I hope that comment doesn't derail the thread!).

Just suspend disbelief for a moment and let's say curses are real. It would look alot like what has been happening to DC. Creative confusion, controversy at the staffing level (Bob Harras), exaggerated loss of fan loyalty despite there being lots of good stories with the bad, lagging sales, BvS getting unfairly slammed with melodramatic reactions (this sort of effect seems a little less pronounced in the comics), --- to that last point, you'll notice that with BvS and DCURebirth, the positive reviews tend to be well thought out and the negative ones tend to be very emotional (again, more with BVS than DCUR). It just seems DC can't get anything right, bad things just keep happenning and the negativity persists despite best efforts.

You can explain that other ways than with a curse, but other comic publishers also put out mixed quality product but do not get **** on like DC does. At least it doesn't seem like it.

I don't know, it's just one way of looking at it. Seen that way, DCURebirth #1 was Johns drawing a line in the sand. Mounting and counter attack to Moore's grey magic. Johns is attempting to shine the light if you will, to expose the dark force that Moore has cast over the DCU, not with Watchmen but with his public denoncement and character assasination of DC Comics (which is the most common form of curse in magical folklore). It just happens that Watchment was Moore's crown jewel at DC and now DC s basically saying, "**** you, we own these characters, you are not God, we are gonna do whatever the **** we want with OUR property". But they are doing so in the nicest most "white light" way possible.

I know I will probably get laughed out the thread. Meh, I get to have an opinion."

So to Alan, this whole thing is like a magical war partly fought in the realm of fiction (trust me, I'm an occult nerd, I've made myself familiar with his views). If he catches any whiff of what Johns did, he is likely to retaliate in a public way.

[Atlanta96]

So to Alan, this whole thing is like a magical war partly fought in the realm of fiction (trust me, I'm an occult nerd, I've made myself familiar with his views). If he catches any whiff of what Johns did, he is likely to retaliate in a public way.

He's going to curse Geoff Johns with Moore syndrome. Crazy eyes, insane facial hair, and the inability to apply his criticisms of other people's work to himself. Poor Geoff won't see it coming.

[JackDaw]

If Alan Moore was sort of guy who had a set of completely mundane and average beliefs...and also believed DC was a wonderful company...would his comics be as entertaining as they are??

[Ulysses]

If Alan Moore was sort of guy who had a set of completely mundane and average beliefs...and also believed DC was a wonderful company...would his comics be as entertaining as they are??

Probably. The magic thing came after most of his acclaimed work. It was in 1993 that he declared himself a magician. But... he was on the way there beliefs-wise for a while before that. But I think he was a great writer first, magician later.

On the other hand Grant Morrison has been a magician most of his life. Nearly his entire body of work is linked to his unconvetnional beliefs in some way.

[JackDaw]

Deep down I think the real problem is that the basic DC creative process for its mainstream story telling Earth is to cram more and more super powered characters into it.

For me it's not really working. The result is really unbalanced, and results in a setting which doesn't really work IF you try to work out what would really happen in such a world.

Take an obvious example...the technology is "all over the place"...super advanced stuff that allows travel to other worlds...but never filters through to having any real effect on everyday life.

And ruthless super villains...guns, etc...and a guy who hits streets with a bow and arrow is a major hero?? Or Batman getting involved in fist fights when some guys can throw planets?

And wouldn't most super become something other than a "hero" or "villain". If you want to do good..then equally likely to become an engineer, medic, teacher, etc. If you want money and power..daft choice to result to crime if you have powers.

Contrast that to the original Watchmen where a few specific characters where put into a bespoke world to tell one particular story...the DC mainstream model suffers by comparison.

Just wish DC would think more carefully about overall story setting, rather than just cram character after character in....that approach has reached and passed its "use by" date

That...regardless of Alan Moore's views..is why I'm sorry to see Watchmen characters thrown into overall mix, it's just not addressing any of the real problems in regard to main DC story telling world.

[Ulysses]

Eh, all fantasy fiction is dumb if you think about it. I'd rather not read a comic book about Steve the super plumber. Or Shelly the super-appliance repair person.

It may be true that there's an overabundance of megapowered characters but I don't think it's a big part of the problem.

[JackDaw]

Probably. The magic thing came after most of his acclaimed work. It was in 1993 that he declared himself a magician. But... he was on the way there beliefs-wise for a while before that. But I think he was a great writer first, magician later.

On the other hand Grant Morrison has been a magician most of his life. Nearly his entire body of work is linked to his unconvetnional beliefs in some way.

But before he became a magician...he had an unusually deep belief in importance of the detail of the creative process, and a deep fantastic imagination.

He wasn't "Joe Average"...the mindset that resulted in him becoming a believer in magic was there.

[JackDaw]

Eh, all fantasy fiction is dumb if you think about it. I'd rather not read a comic book about Steve the super plumber. Or Shelly the super-appliance repair person.

It may be true that there's an overabundance of megapowered characters but I don't think it's a big part of the problem.

Not suggesting for a second that anybody would want to read about adventures of super plumber, etc. What I was suggesting was that if DC writers were doing their job really well they would convey impact of the existence of such people in their story telling.

One minor example...once a supe becomes a full time hero..he or she is not going to become as good a doctor or surgeon as a full time medic with powers and full time study, etc.

Yet what happens when an hero gets badly hurt? We're more likely to see Dr Midnite or Batman operate than a pukka doctor.

[Ulysses]

But before he became a magician...he had an unusually deep belief in importance of the detail of the creative process, and a deep fantastic imagination.

He wasn't "Joe Average"...the mindset that resulted in him becoming a believer in magic was there.

Agreed. He just wasn't as... "official" about his beliefs as G-Mo. He didn't have it labeled. But yeah, he was never middle of the road.

[JackDaw]

Agreed. He just wasn't as... "official" about his beliefs as G-Mo. He didn't have it labeled. But yeah, he was never middle of the road.

And...like you...I actually prefer his early work.

But again when you look at that early work, I suspect you see an incredible amount of attention to detail? His scripts were far more detailed than the norm, although he was nearly always happy to leave a lot to judgment of artist.

Deep down I suspect that things that made him a really outstanding creator...that willingness to go into real detail and that fantastic imagination...often count against in the "public relations game". (Because whenever he gets asked a question...he tends to go into detail...and doesn't edit his views to make them more middle of the road. That weird imagination that makes much of his work so outstanding....counts against him in other contexts?)

[Ulysses]

I wouldn't change a thing about Moore's beliefs. love 'em the way they are.

[JKtheMac]

Copy paste from another thread, partly because I'm starved for attention partly because it relates to this thread.

"About the Alan Moore thing: My take is that he did curse DC/WB. I know most people don't believe that magical attacks can have real effects but I tend to believe it because of the several thousand years of anecdotal evidence and about 150 years of empirical evidence (god I hope that comment doesn't derail the thread!).

Just suspend disbelief for a moment and let's say curses are real. It would look alot like what has been happening to DC. Creative confusion, controversy at the staffing level (Bob Harras), exaggerated loss of fan loyalty despite there being lots of good stories with the bad, lagging sales, BvS getting unfairly slammed with melodramatic reactions (this sort of effect seems a little less pronounced in the comics), --- to that last point, you'll notice that with BvS and DCURebirth, the positive reviews tend to be well thought out and the negative ones tend to be very emotional (again, more with BVS than DCUR). It just seems DC can't get anything right, bad things just keep happenning and the negativity persists despite best efforts.

You can explain that other ways than with a curse, but other comic publishers also put out mixed quality product but do not get **** on like DC does. At least it doesn't seem like it.

I don't know, it's just one way of looking at it. Seen that way, DCURebirth #1 was Johns drawing a line in the sand. Mounting and counter attack to Moore's grey magic. Johns is attempting to shine the light if you will, to expose the dark force that Moore has cast over the DCU, not with Watchmen but with his public denoncement and character assasination of DC Comics (which is the most common form of curse in magical folklore). It just happens that Watchment was Moore's crown jewel at DC and now DC s basically saying, "**** you, we own these characters, you are not God, we are gonna do whatever the **** we want with OUR property". But they are doing so in the nicest most "white light" way possible.

I know I will probably get laughed out the thread. Meh, I get to have an opinion."

So to Alan, this whole thing is like a magical war partly fought in the realm of fiction (trust me, I'm an occult nerd, I've made myself familiar with his views). If he catches any whiff of what Johns did, he is likely to retaliate in a public way.

To give this some perspective. What exactly is a curse? If you are a magical thinker, and a surprisingly large number of people are without even realising it, then it is a mystical thing that involves a link to some transcendent place. To a scientific thinker it is a meaningless artifact that has no powers other than what people bring to it in their misguided imagination. But we don't actually live (as in inhabit and interact on a daily basis) in a scientific world or a magical world, we live in a cultural world. We live in a world where stories and ideas are ubiquitous and affecting. To say somebody cursed somebody else in a cultural context, all we are really saying is they presented an idea in such a way (in this case in the form of a narrative) that captured other people's imaginations and changed the way they thought about and reacted to other things.

In many ways I think Alan Moore's story conforms to that of a villain who thinks he is a hero. It is perfectly possible to understand where he is comming from and how he feels, and he seems positive and perfectly nice, but his actions can be seen as broadly negative and self destructive when seen from a distance. Did he effectively curse himself by dabbling in the black magic of negativity and cynicism?

[JackDaw]

In many ways I think Alan Moore's story conforms to that of a villain who thinks he is a hero. It is perfectly possible to understand where he is comming from and how he feels, and he seems positive and perfectly nice, but his actions can be seen as broadly negative and self destructive when seen from a distance. Did he effectively curse himself by dabbling in the black magic of negativity and cynicism?

Can his actions really be seen as broadly negative and self destructive? He could have made more money...but he didn't set out with that objective. He set out to create long lasting art...and he's succeeded as well at that as almost anybody in the comics world.

His stories have given many people great pleasure. And the standard of his scripts threw a challenge down to other writers, and to some extent raised standards for other gifted writers. I think his influence on comics has been overwhelmingly positive...a few questionable interviews don't really effect the big picture.

Let's take if from perspective of a comics fan wanting to read good comics...then if Alan M is "cursed", some might argue that it's a pity that a few more writers are not similarly afflicted.

[mr_crisp]

"Geoff Johns you just made my list!"