Preferred duration of Dick Grayson's Robin career?

[FS7]

There are several aspects to it:

1) Dick being a "special" case (who ends up opening the way for future Robins, of course): Obviously, Dick isnt the first and definitely not the last kid Bruce ran into who has been orphaned at an early age, or who lost his parents to crime. I am sure he feels for all of them and tries to help them out the best way he can through his foundations, by making sure they get placed in good homes etc. But Dick was a "special" case where he actually took this boy in himself. Being the same age as Bruce gives that special touch. It would hit Bruce even deeper and make him feel an even more personal connection, to the point where he would make an emotional decision rather than a logical one (because logically he would consider himself rather unqualified to be a father, IMHO, and would think a kid would be better served in a loving home with preferably two parents who could devote all their time to him, and who don't spend most of their time fighting crime. And when you are trying to keep a secret identity and your base of operations is the caves just beneath your house, very inconvenient -and not the brightest move- to bring a kid in to your house to live with you permanently.).
2) The father/son bond: Whether Bruce took Dick in when he was just 8/9 or 12/13 makes a difference here too. The former means there is a greater age difference between them and a longer time they spend together, meaning Bruce would be that more influential in raising Dick, thus has every right to be proud of how he turned out and how he did a good job as a father... It also adds to the rough patch they hit later on in their relationship. I think having Bruce know Dick as a “kid” longer adds to how Bruce couldn’t really handle it as Dick started to grow up and wanted to assert his independence more and went his seperate way...

1) The difference between those kids and Dick was that a) Dick wanted revenge, he wanted to kill Zucco, and Bruce wanted to make sure Dick didn't grow up to be an awful person; hence all the different stories where we see that, without Bruce's guidance and love, Dick would've become a two-bit hood just like Chill or Zucco and b) Dick had no one, not even an estranged relative, to take care of him, just like Bruce; personally, I think that's more important than the two of them being the same age when they lost their parents.

2) That is true, but honestly, I think that the whole father-son bond still works if Dick is 13 when they first met. As for deepening that bond by having Dick be 8 when Bruce took him in, I'm willing to sacrifice that aspect if it means we don't get that bit of weirdness with "wait, Batman let an 8-year-old fight crime alongside him?" and "wait, so how could Tim have witnessed the Flying Graysons' deaths if that happened when Dick was 8?"

[Schumiac]

1) The difference between those kids and Dick was that a) Dick wanted revenge, he wanted to kill Zucco, and Bruce wanted to make sure Dick didn't grow up to be an awful person; hence all the different stories where we see that, without Bruce's guidance and love, Dick would've become a two-bit hood just like Chill or Zucco and b) Dick had no one, not even an estranged relative, to take care of him, just like Bruce; personally, I think that's more important than the two of them being the same age when they lost their parents.

2) That is true, but honestly, I think that the whole father-son bond still works if Dick is 13 when they first met. As for deepening that bond by having Dick be 8 when Bruce took him in, I'm willing to sacrifice that aspect if it means we don't get that bit of weirdness with "wait, Batman let an 8-year-old fight crime alongside him?" and "wait, so how could Tim have witnessed the Flying Graysons' deaths if that happened when Dick was 8?"

1)
a) That is not exactly true...
Although aspects of Dick's origin story changes from time to time, he is never necessarily shown as a gone crazy with revenge and wants murder kind of guy. In his origin stories till Batman Year 3 in 1989 he actually just wanted to go to the police with the info he had to get the guy captured and it was Batman who approached him and stopped him from doing so saying the town was run by Zucco... Year 3 has him claiming he wants the murderers found and killed, and he breaks down crying when a nun askes him if that will make things better, because deep down he knows it wont, it was just an understandable outcry of a kid who lost everything and is helpless to do anything about it. Doesn't mean he was really planning to go look for the criminals and kill them... When Bruce took him in, Dick had already changed his mind on that and didn't want Zucco dead, just brought to justice (so it had nothing to do with Bruce's influence)... Other than that, in recent origin stories like in Nightwing #0, he is shown wanting to find Zucco, but kill him, no? Recent stories Bruce doesn't take him in wanting to make a crime partner out of him, showing him his way of dealing with stuff. He takes him in to give him a safe home, due to how much he relates to this particular kid and his pain. Dick having a good temperament and respect and thirst for justice is what makes Bruce decide he can be a worthy crimefighter and let him in (as does the fact the kid is already sneaking out trying to solve his parents' murder, and it is better to train him and watch over him so that he doesn't get hurt or killed)... He wanted to give Dick the opportunity he never had, closure, by being part of capturing Zucco. That is one of the main differences between them too. Dick has had closure. He didn't need to teach Dick "killing is bad", though, kid already knew that and didn't want it. It is also why their partnership was easy-going and ran smoothly, they wanted the same things and had similar approaches. He had to teach Dick the "technical" stuff, but the core ideals they shared. Actually, Dick can be claimed to be even more of an idealist than the two, where some of Batman's interrogation techniques etc are too harsh and cruel for his liking...


Also, curious to hear which alternate stories show Dick as a two-bit Zucco like criminal without Bruce's influence? Please jog my memory. The alternate timelines/ stories I can think of doesnt have that. He has turned into a psychopath in Dark Knight Returns/All Star B&R but that is actually due to all the suffering and torment Bruce inflicts on him as Robin (the whole story is atrocious and offending to me tbh) & the gene-altering experiments. He is a baddie in Earth 3 because Owlman specifically targets him as a potential partner, getting rid of his entire family (who were criminals themselves in that timeline) by sabotaging their rope so that he can take the kid and raise him so. Recently, in the messed up story that is Booster Gold changing history as a wedding gift to Bruce where his parents don't die and he doesn't become Batman, Dick becomes Batman on his own, and he has questionable morals in that he has no qualms in killing villains and people he deem dangerous, but he is not a crook, he is a vigilante...


b) Again, Dick is probably not the first orphan kid who will end up in an orphanage/in the system if Bruce didn't take him in, him not having any relatives is not the reason for Bruce taking him in himself. He could easily help find a good home for the kid, with 2 parents, where he could grow up safe and happy. He opted to take this kid in and raise him himself, even though he is hardly in a situation ideal to raise a kid... It is rather inconvenient for him. He did so, because there was a special connection to Dick...

2) Well, he gets taken in at the age 8... But has training for a year or so, so won't be out crime fighting till 9/10. And Batman is shown reluctant to let him come along, but there is no stopping Dick, who is already sneaking out at nights to fight crime and search for his parent's killers... So taking him in, training him and being there to supervise him was Batman's way of making sure the kid survived...

Whether he is 9 or 13 or 15 - Batman allowing a kid to fight crime is going to be weird regardless. When you think about it, it makes the follow-up Robins even more problematic too. Like, if Dick was fired out of Bruce's concern for his well being, he had no business taking an even younger (and less trained) Jason in to be Robin at the time. And after Jason's death, he simply should not have taken in another kid as Robin, ever, no matter what explanation is given about it... It might be better for Bruce's psyche to have a kid around to lighten his life, but obviosuly it is not good for the kid and he should not be taking one in and no one should have been supporting the idea after Jason's death. But they were, and Tim became Robin, behind his parents back too... I think that makes things even worse. Here we has adults/heroes/good guys encouraging a small kid to risk his life every day fighting crime, and there is simply no benefit to the kid. Tim wasn't an oprhan, Tim didn't have any tragedy in his life to "work through". he was a normal kid who could lead a normal life and they took it from him.... Then there is Dick replacing an experienced, competent, older Robin with a 10 years old. Which slightly makes more "sense" if he himself had started Robin at such a young age so believed it could be done, especially as Damian already had "assasin's training"... Otherwise he is the guy who just lost his father to crime-fighting, and decided he should take his volatile, disobedient 10 years old brother along to fight crime.. Hardly logical or sane)... and then Bruce kept that young Robin as his... The "problems" regarding Robins are never ending if basic logic and sanity is applied to them, as it is the whole concept of a kid crime-fighter that is problematic.

as for Tim's timeline, that is problematic yes (as is most timelines regarding comics). It is possible for him to remember the Grayson's deaths if he is 3 or 4 I guess... It was a shocking enough big event for him to retain the memory, and if he kept obsessing over it, he would keep going over it, watching vids when older etc etc. which would keep it fresh and vivid in his memory... but it does require condensing Dick's Titans/Nightwing beginning years era a bit more... If Dick is 19 or 20 (meaning Bruce takes him in when he is 8 or 9) when Tim becomes Robin at 14, it would still work..

It really is a matter of preference I guess. For me, the moment I accepted the concept of Robin, I stopped caring making sense of their ages because there just isn't a "suitable/logical" age for a kid to be doing that... And it is neat if one can make the tmelines work more or less but in comics I have also come to accept the timelines to be messed up due to writers hardly paying them much attention. So what I primarily look for is the ages making sense for the relationships. They matter more to me.

[Jim Kelly]

The problem with all the fiddling with the continuity is that you miss that long arc of Jason Todd, where Bruce discourages him from being a crime fighter and Jason goes out on his own and does it anyway. Meanwhile, Dick has long left the Batcave to go to school and have adventures on his own as Robin, sometimes re-teaming with Batman, before finally giving up the identity on his own terms (having nothing to do with Bruce), before he gives Jason his blessing to become the new Robin.

Because an editor wanted to create fake drama, a lot of the mutual respect and emotional support, that had been shown in the comics previously, was shelved. It makes no sense in the world of super-heroes where there are long lists of child super-heroes and loads of adult heroes who mentor them. But what the hell, lets beat up on Bruce Wayne and turn him into a child abuser, because that's the Batman everyone wants to see.

[Aahz]

I don't think you can really go by the whole "Dick was driving the Batmobile around, so he must've been at least 16". The Earth-2/Golden Age Robin drove the Batmobile when he was 15. I don't think it really means anything.

He also drove at least in one comic (World's Finest #66 from 1953) in his civilian identity.

World's Finest Comics #66 (1953).jpg

Anyway, like I said, ignoring the Golden Age Robin it seems like he was supposed to be anywhere from his pre-teens to his early teens before the Teen Titans debuted, then officially became a teenager when the Teen Titans were formed, and then went off to college. Dick did age over time, just really really slowly.

At the time he got his solo stories, he was definitely in his teens. In the majority of his Golden and Silverage Stories he is afaik roughly 15-16.

[FS7]

He also drove at least in one comic (World's Finest #66 from 1953) in his civilian identity.

Interesting. Whether we should consider this an Earth-2 story or not is kinda up to you. Millions of arguments have been had over the years regarding what the cut-off point for the Silver Age (and thus Earth-1) era was. I tend to go with the Earth-2 Mr Mxyzptlk's (or Mxyztplk as he was known back then) last appearance in 1954. So yeah, I wouldn't really take this story into consideration personally.

At the time he got his solo stories, he was definitely in his teens. In the majority of his Golden and Silverage Stories he is afaik roughly 15-16.

I honestly don't know if that's the case. Even if there were some Silver Age stories where he's stated to be 15 or 16, it doesn't seem like every writer or artist who wrote stories featuring the character was aware of that. Dick sure as heck seems to be drawn as if he was in his pre-teens/early teens before Teen Titans came out. Heck, even in The Brave and the Bold 54, Dick does not look like a teenager, at least not to me. So I honestly don't know. I would like see some scans of Silver Age comics where Dick is said to be 15 or 16, if anyone has any.

[Aahz]

Interesting. Whether we should consider this an Earth-2 story or not is kinda up to you. Millions of arguments have been had over the years regarding what the cut-off point for the Silver Age (and thus Earth-1) era was. I tend to go with the Earth-2 Mr Mxyzptlk's (or Mxyztplk as he was known back then) last appearance in 1954. So yeah, I wouldn't really take this story into consideration personally.

I don't really think if matters if it was Golden or Silver Age, for Batman it doesn't really make a difference, and all of his classic Golden Age Stories are also canon in the Earth-1 continuity.

I honestly don't know if that's the case. Even if there were some Silver Age stories where he's stated to be 15 or 16, it doesn't seem like every writer or artist who wrote stories featuring the character was aware of that. Dick sure as heck seems to be drawn as if he was in his pre-teens/early teens before Teen Titans came out. Heck, even in The Brave and the Bold 54, Dick does not look like a teenager, at least not to me. So I honestly don't know. I would like see some scans of Silver Age comics where Dick is said to be 15 or 16, if anyone has any.

The only comic that really stated this age is a a golden age comic (Star Spangled Comics #122 1951), and even there it is only indirectly.
Star Spangled Comics #122 (1951).jpg

But there are plenty of comics from the silver age that show Dick as high school student (which would make him afaik at least 14). And in the Silver Age retelling of his origin (Batman #213 1969) he was already called a teenager in his first outing as Robin.

Batman #213.jpg

When it comes to his look kids and teenagers are often drawn absurdly short in comics, just look at Damian he is supposed to be 13, and is sometimes drawn like he was 8. Or look at Tim's generation they are all supposed to be 16 at this point but are all a head shorter than the adult heros, which makes them look more like 13 or 14 year olds.
And Dick was in his silver age appearances (at least before the "new look") exactly drawn like in his Golden Age appearances (where he is 15 according to the scan above), and you said your self that he didn't looked like a teenager for you in the first appearance of the Teen Titans.

[Jackalope89]

Start when Dick is about 9 (his training at least). Then he remains as Robin until he's about 18-19 years old when Jason becomes Robin II at about 12-13 years old.

Bruce should be in his early to mid 20s. But just for kicks, and to give people that don't like Dick "aging Bruce", let's go for a Bruce in his 30s. After a point, he's forced to retire with Dick taking up the mantle until Damian is big and old enough for the cape and cowl himself.

[Fergus]

I went for 8.
A similar age to when Bruce himself when he was orphaned.
Dick's tenure as Robin and his relationship with Bruce is the representation of everything B&R and the bat family is. The benchmark.
Bruce was a father and a mentor to Dick. They have a very strong bond which took years to develop.

[FS7]

I don't really think if matters if it was Golden or Silver Age, for Batman it doesn't really make a difference, and all of his classic Golden Age Stories are also canon in the Earth-1 continuity.

They're definitely not. Some events may have happened similarly to how they did on Earth-2, but I'd say it's been made pretty clear that those early stories were set on Earth-2. Take Alfred's first appearance, for example. The way we see it happen in Batman #16 is the way it happened on Earth-2. Earth-1 Alfred was always skinny and he always had that mustache (as per The Untold Legend of Batman), even though the two takes on Alfred's early days with Bruce and Dick are very similar. Batman's original origin had Martha "MARTHAAAAAAAA" Wayne dying of "shock" (or a broken heart or whatever), whereas most Earth-1 takes on the origin had her being gunned down by Chill. Heck, speaking of The Untold Legend of Batman, the costume Bruce wears during the flashbacks to his early days is the Neal Adams outfit, not the original Bob Kane one.

And one thing is for sure, those early stories where Batman shot people left and right and murdered criminals did not happen on Earth-1.

And in the Silver Age retelling of his origin (Batman #213 1969) he was already called a teenager in his first outing as Robin.

It sure makes a lot more sense than Dick being 8 when he became Robin, especially in terms of the passage of time. Wolfman's whole "Dick was 8 when he became Robin" thing kinda contradicts a LOT of other stories. Like that story that established that Barbara Gordon gained super powers and met Superboy when she was 11. Or that other story where Superboy met Supergirl when she was a little kid. So yeah.

And Dick was in his silver age appearances (at least before the "new look") exactly drawn like in his Golden Age appearances (where he is 15 according to the scan above), and you said your self that he didn't looked like a teenager for you in the first appearance of the Teen Titans.

Well, they weren't the Teen Titans yet at that time. I honestly don't recall if they actually established in that story that Robin was a teenager, or that they were all teens. Regardless, it could be a matter of DC wanting everyone to stick to the style guide and draw Robin the exact same way he had been drawn for years, but then once they decide to make Teen Titans a thing and give it a try-out feature on The Brave and the Bold and Showcase, or maybe when the ongoing came out, I don't know, maybe they decided to draw Dick a little older. It sure seems to me like Dick was drawn one way before Teen Titans and was aged up once they became a thing.

[Aahz]

They're definitely not.

Depends, in the Silver Age the Golden Age stuff was still canon. In the Bronze Age they started to retcon stuff and that also the time when they started to introduce the concept of having 2 different Batman.

[oasis1313]

We spend more time and effort trying to do this math than DC does.

[Buried Alien]

We spend more time and effort trying to do this math than DC does.

Unfortunately, DC won't hire us as consultants. Imagine being paid to track all this!

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[oasis1313]

Unfortunately, DC won't hire us as consultants. Imagine being paid to track all this!

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Not enough money in the world to pay us for that much useless work! We'd feel like hamsters running around a wheel in a cage.

[Buried Alien]

Not enough money in the world to pay us for that much useless work! We'd feel like hamsters running around a wheel in a cage.

I guess it would be "useless" in the sense that we might succeed in sorting the mess out, but even if we did, DC would probably ignore the results and go monkeying with the continuity anyway. It's in DC's DNA.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[oasis1313]

I guess it would be "useless" in the sense that we might succeed in sorting the mess out, but even if we did, DC would probably ignore the results and go monkeying with the continuity anyway. It's in DC's DNA.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Remember: People are promoted to their highest level of incompetence. We're too good for 'em.