Preferred duration of Dick Grayson's Robin career?

[Restingvoice]

Wat, he became Robin at 14-15?

I'm sure no one actually follows that and they just write what they think is right as usual

[bat39]

For what it's worth, here's what DC published in the Batman Secret Files back in 1997:



And two years later was the Nightwing Secret Files:

Yeah, you can definitely see them desperately trying to compress the timeline in order to keep Batman's career to 10 years, by shortening the length of Dick's time as Robin to 3-4 years in total. I suppose it helped them that they most did their best to ignore Pre-COIE stories (while not retconning them out entirely).

Couple of things I find weird with the Nightwing timeline - Batman's first encounter with Ra's al Ghul being pushed back to early in Dick's time as Robin (he was explicitly a college student in the original story and was kidnapped from his dorm room!), and Dick joining the Teen Titans after being 'fired' as Robin by Bruce.

[TheRay]

I think you can definitely start Batman at 18, the League does not seem to shy away from training kids.

[PurpleGlovez]

The Secret Files Guide to the DCU 2000 timeline had Ra's al Ghul a year out from Dick's debut as Robin as well. But keep in mind all these timelines were made with the conceit that, in post-Crisis continuity, Robin was now post-Justice League. Except they gradually began to walk this back starting with Matt Wagner's Trinity mini-series, which has Bruce and Clark meeting Diana for the first time and explicitly takes place before Aquaman even makes himself public; and Robin is present and Batman has already encountered Ra's al Ghul at least once. In Brad Meltzer's JLA run, Robin is once again confirmed to precede the formation of the JLA.

And then remember the internal logic of Morrison's run requires Bruce's relationship with Kathy Kane to take place before he meets Talia. In Batman R.I.P. Bruce's journal says the isolation chamber experiment (occurring shortly after him and Kathy's breakup) was "five years" into the mission, i.e. Year Six, which ironically fits with the Dark Victory timeline of a late Year Five Robin debut despite Island of Mister Mayhew's assertion the Club of Heroes first formed (with Robin present) when Batman was "just starting out". Also Batgirl Year One mentions the Teen Titans.

So, it's weird, but with retcons it's supposed to go: Robin -> Kathy Kane's Batwoman -> Ra's al Ghul and Talia -> Trinity -> Justice League -> Teen Titans -> Barbara Gordon's Batgirl.

[Dataweaver]

To paraphrase from Pirates of the Caribbean, “the timeline is more what you'd call ‘guidelines’ than actual rules”. This has always been true, by the way: they've never been consistent with dates or ages — not for any longer than a year or so, anyway. But post-DM, they've made it explicit. Which has the effect of rendering this entire thread moot, since the thread has a built-in assumption of there being a single, self-consistent and coherent timeline.

[bat39]

The Secret Files Guide to the DCU 2000 timeline had Ra's al Ghul a year out from Dick's debut as Robin as well. But keep in mind all these timelines were made with the conceit that, in post-Crisis continuity, Robin was now post-Justice League. Except they gradually began to walk this back starting with Matt Wagner's Trinity mini-series, which has Bruce and Clark meeting Diana for the first time and explicitly takes place before Aquaman even makes himself public; and Robin is present and Batman has already encountered Ra's al Ghul at least once. In Brad Meltzer's JLA run, Robin is once again confirmed to precede the formation of the JLA.

And then remember the internal logic of Morrison's run requires Bruce's relationship with Kathy Kane to take place before he meets Talia. In Batman R.I.P. Bruce's journal says the isolation chamber experiment (occurring shortly after him and Kathy's breakup) was "five years" into the mission, i.e. Year Six, which ironically fits with the Dark Victory timeline of a late Year Five Robin debut despite Island of Mister Mayhew's assertion the Club of Heroes first formed (with Robin present) when Batman was "just starting out". Also Batgirl Year One mentions the Teen Titans.

So, it's weird, but with retcons it's supposed to go: Robin -> Kathy Kane's Batwoman -> Ra's al Ghul and Talia -> Trinity -> Justice League -> Teen Titans -> Barbara Gordon's Batgirl.

Yeah this is a weird chronology, and I guess its the result of story after story of reimagining the 'early years' of Batman, Robin and the Justice League, with every writer having a different idea of where their story fits in with the larger context of Batman's world, and the DCU as a whole.

I'm sure with Rebirth restoring classic continuity for some characters but not others, this will be an even bigger mess. For instance, if Superman and Batman have been around 15-20 years, and if Barry as the Flash has only been around, say, 10 years, then it means the Justice League formation is a lot later from the perspective of Superman and Batman...possibly when Dick is already Nightwing! Which in turn screws up Dick's age relative to Wally, and really, the whole Teen Titans origin.

They created a similar timeline mess just after COIE when they rebooted Jason Todd seemingly in the 'present day' (or maybe the 'recent past'...been a while since I've read those stories). It led to a weird story in Batman # 416 where Dick, now Nightwing, confronts Bruce for the first time since the latter 'fired' him (in Batman # 408, which is said to be ''18 months ago''). Dick mentions how after Bruce fired him, he went off on his own and formed the Teen Titans. Now, the New Teen Titans were very much around in the 'present' of Post-COIE continuity, which means that in the last 18 months or so, Dick co-founded the Teen Titans, co-founded the New Teen Titans and became Nightwing!

Byrne's Man of Steel also messed up Superman's timeline relative to the DCU. The mini spans about 3 years or so and then ''catches up'' to the present-day DCU by its last issue. And Batman appears in the third issue and its still very much an 'early' vigilante Batman (this was before Year One was published of course) during Superman's first year. Going by the internal chronology of MOS, we're supposed to believe that Batman recruits Dick, Dick leaves, and Jason comes on board (not to mention all the past Batman stories that are still nominally in continuity) all within a span of less than 3 years! And so does every other development in the DCU, like the various Justice League and Teen Titans teams.

So yeah, on some level, all this has always been a mess. But I prefer to go with rough explanations or timelines that more or less fit in with the original published stories (assuming they've not been explicitly retconned or replaced). So to my mind, Batman meets Ra's al Ghul some time into Dick's career as Robin, when Dick is already in college. Frankly it makes way more sense for Ra's to want as his heir a veteran Batman than someone who's only been at it a few years...

[K. Jones]

Longest, but only currently because of a condensed chronology and the fact that we'll never go 10-15 real-time years without them switching to a new Robin, which means Robin tenures in-continuity are only like two years now - an extended Apprenticeship or Internship, whereas Dick Grayson basically spent his entire teenage years as Robin, right up to manhood.

Traditionally people toy with a notion of "ten year old boy" origination for Dick's origin story which is something I can't really buy into. From a fantasist standpoint I can kind of see it, it's a good age for a sort of graduation into the world - look at Harry Potter and Ash Ketchum and Peter Pan and so forth. But this is Batman comics, and a lot of hand-to-hand combat with adult men, even for a spritely acrobat, you want to give him that edge of at least being a newly minted teenager. More than that though, even with the moniker of "BOY WONDER", I feel like Original Robin stories and then all preceding Robin stories really are at the heart the best kind of allegorical or Coming-of-Age superheroics for teenage boys to relate to.

So I tend to correlate Grayson's start date as 13-14, thus each decade of his Real Life Robin Chrono equates to about a year in the pixie boots until he invariably turns 18 and the Judas Contract takes place. That's a five year (five decade) stint. By comparison this means that Jason Todd was Robin less than a year, and Tim and Damian about 2 years a piece (although it's complicated for Tim because he's technically still Robin, sharing Robinhood with Damian). Moreover this means Dick has now "not been Robin" almost as long as he was Robin - his Nightwing guise interrupted for the good part of a year of being Batman.

Thirteen is perfect, Dick essentially had a bar, (or bat-)mitzvah. Your parents are dead. Now you are a man. Now put on these girly green booty shorts and slippers and let's go beat on mafia guys until they have brain damage.

And with a decade of his life having sort of happened in multiple mediums in front of our eyes he'll eternally be the kid we grew up with who is a young adult now, which really only applies to Roy otherwise to that degree, having both existed as Golden Age Sidekicks and grown up in real-time and remained the same character rather than be artificially aged up, timeline-shunted, Earth-Twoed or rebooted. (Alternately of course ... Dick was ALSO Earth-Twoed, simultaneously, and meeting his Grown up E-2 self when you're sixteen years old must be weird.)

The question now is, by still being Nightwing (essentially "dark goth teenage rebel Robin") at age 22-23, is Dick Grayson falling into a sort of Peter Pan Syndrome scenario? It honors his parents, Batman, Superman, AND hints at the Owls, but is dressing as the acrobat you were as a little boy, and maintaining that sort of Boy Wonder aspect (as well as his flaky super-hero busy life aversion to monogamy) ... a form of "NEVER GROW UP?"

When does Prime Timeline Dick Grayson stop taking punches in night-time alleys, finish that Law Degree, pass the bar and become a serious grown-up adult lawyer at Cranston, Grayson & Wayne Law Firm. Because then "Nightwing" the comic book turns into Daredevil.

[Dataweaver]

Longest, but only currently because of a condensed chronology and the fact that we'll never go 10-15 real-time years without them switching to a new Robin, which means Robin tenures in-continuity are only like two years now - an extended Apprenticeship or Internship, whereas Dick Grayson basically spent his entire teenage years as Robin, right up to manhood.

Traditionally people toy with a notion of "ten year old boy" origination for Dick's origin story which is something I can't really buy into. From a fantasist standpoint I can kind of see it, it's a good age for a sort of graduation into the world - look at Harry Potter and Ash Ketchum and Peter Pan and so forth. But this is Batman comics, and a lot of hand-to-hand combat with adult men, even for a spritely acrobat, you want to give him that edge of at least being a newly minted teenager. More than that though, even with the moniker of "BOY WONDER", I feel like Original Robin stories and then all preceding Robin stories really are at the heart the best kind of allegorical or Coming-of-Age superheroics for teenage boys to relate to.

So I tend to correlate Grayson's start date as 13-14, thus each decade of his Real Life Robin Chrono equates to about a year in the pixie boots until he invariably turns 18 and the Judas Contract takes place. That's a five year (five decade) stint. By comparison this means that Jason Todd was Robin less than a year, and Tim and Damian about 2 years a piece (although it's complicated for Tim because he's technically still Robin, sharing Robinhood with Damian). Moreover this means Dick has now "not been Robin" almost as long as he was Robin - his Nightwing guise interrupted for the good part of a year of being Batman.

Thirteen is perfect, Dick essentially had a bar, (or bat-)mitzvah. Your parents are dead. Now you are a man. Now put on these girly green booty shorts and slippers and let's go beat on mafia guys until they have brain damage.

And with a decade of his life having sort of happened in multiple mediums in front of our eyes he'll eternally be the kid we grew up with who is a young adult now, which really only applies to Roy otherwise to that degree, having both existed as Golden Age Sidekicks and grown up in real-time and remained the same character rather than be artificially aged up, timeline-shunted, Earth-Twoed or rebooted. (Alternately of course ... Dick was ALSO Earth-Twoed, simultaneously, and meeting his Grown up E-2 self when you're sixteen years old must be weird.)

The question now is, by still being Nightwing (essentially "dark goth teenage rebel Robin") at age 22-23, is Dick Grayson falling into a sort of Peter Pan Syndrome scenario? It honors his parents, Batman, Superman, AND hints at the Owls, but is dressing as the acrobat you were as a little boy, and maintaining that sort of Boy Wonder aspect (as well as his flaky super-hero busy life aversion to monogamy) ... a form of "NEVER GROW UP?"

When does Prime Timeline Dick Grayson stop taking punches in night-time alleys, finish that Law Degree, pass the bar and become a serious grown-up adult lawyer at Cranston, Grayson & Wayne Law Firm. Because then "Nightwing" the comic book turns into Daredevil.

He's already done the “join the police” and “become a secret agent” things, which honestly suit him more than being a lawyer. I have no problem with the idea of Sick Grayson going back to the police force and eventually (sooner rather than later) becoming a Detective, and doing something kinda sorta like Daredevil in that regard.

[K. Jones]

He's already done the “join the police” and “become a secret agent” things, which honestly suit him more than being a lawyer. I have no problem with the idea of Sick Grayson going back to the police force and eventually (sooner rather than later) becoming a Detective, and doing something kinda sorta like Daredevil in that regard.

Aye! Definitely more of a tonal shift "growing up" example. Secret Agent and "DC's Nick Fury" is frankly my # 1 sort of head-canon outline of where I'd want him to be for the next 50 years. Naturally when I say "growing up" I don't mean "grimdark gritty death everywhere", either. But nuance, sophistication and a less child-like understanding of good, bad, law, crime, so forth ... I think that's where the Daredevil comparison pops into my head - an adult look at the world through superheroic acrobatic eye level and ninja fights (that works perfectly well with that police overlap and in the world of Spycraft as well - more better still because Dick is like James Bond just without being immoral, so you can really contrast what it means to have values with the understanding of the world that he's acquired over 10 years of being witness to vigilantism to deal with out of control crime ... class, financial strife, duress, a view of it from above and no need for money himself ... human trafficking ... space alien trafficking ... drugs ... fascists ... you name it. Other than The Joker, isn't it always about some kind of Money/Power play on one side ... or Despiration or Mental Health on the other? Who would understand that better?

Well ... probably Superman. But he punches cosmic metaphors in the face, not morally bankrupt secret society humans.

[Aahz]

So I tend to correlate Grayson's start date as 13-14, thus each decade of his Real Life Robin Chrono equates to about a year in the pixie boots until he invariably turns 18 and the Judas Contract takes place. That's a five year (five decade) stint. By comparison this means that Jason Todd was Robin less than a year, and Tim and Damian about 2 years a piece (although it's complicated for Tim because he's technically still Robin, sharing Robinhood with Damian). Moreover this means Dick has now "not been Robin" almost as long as he was Robin - his Nightwing guise interrupted for the good part of a year of being Batman.

If you go by preflashpoint what seems (based on the ages the characters) to make the most sense to me is (counting from the beginning of their respective origin stories) something like this.

Dick 7 years (12-19)
Jason 2 years ((almost) 12 to (almost) 14)
Tim 4 years (13 - 17)
Damain had abaout a year before Flashpoint, and the timeline after it makes no real sense imo

[bat39]

If you go by preflashpoint what seems (based on the ages the characters) to make the most sense to me is (counting from the beginning of their respective origin stories) something like this.

Dick 7 years (12-19)
Jason 2 years ((almost) 12 to (almost) 14)
Tim 4 years (13 - 17)
Damain had abaout a year before Flashpoint, and the timeline after it makes no real sense imo

Yeah this makes the most sense to me IMO.

Damian's age is the real conundrum. He was around 9 when he first appeared, and 10 when he became Robin. Now I believe he's...14?!

The way I see it, Damian was conceived when Dick would have been maybe around 17 at youngest...5 years into Dick's career as Robin and maybe 7-8 years into Bruce's career as Batman. So with Damian's current age, Bruce has to be something like 22 years into his career as Batman!

I'm okay with him being older...but I don't really understand the need to age Damian up relatively fast. Also, Damian ageing up means Tim needs to age-up as well, and yet, I think they insist on keeping him a teenager.

[married guy]

I voted eight years. Six would also work for me.

[Dataweaver]

Damian's age in Rebirth makes sense if you retcon his age when he first met Bruce: that is, he's only been Robin for one or two years; but since he's been shown to be 13 in the present, that means that he had to be 11 or 12, not 9 or 10, when Talia first brought him to Bruce.

That is, don't change his time as Robin; change his starting age instead.

[Aahz]

Damian's age in Rebirth makes sense if you retcon his age when he first met Bruce: that is, he's only been Robin for one or two years; but since he's been shown to be 13 in the present, that means that he had to be 11 or 12, not 9 or 10, when Talia first brought him to Bruce.

He is actually allready 14 now.

And if they stick with him becoming Robin at age 10, and keep the realtive ages somewhat consistent, that would age up basically all characters that were usually around Tims age into arround 20 and every one that is typically arround Dicks age to close to 30.

And there is also a pretty hard limit on how old Damian can be, if they don't have him artificially aged or have Bruce met Talia before he becomes Batman.
I mean even his pre flashpoint age works only with a retcon since originally, Batman didn't met Ras and Talia untill Dick was allready in collage.
Meaning that Damian could have (based on the ages of the other Robins) been maybe been something like 5 or 6 when he met bruce the first time.

[SiegePerilous02]

I definitely don't like Dick's tenure as Robin being too short. He should start at 12, and honestly not give up the mantle until even the age of 20-21. So almost a decade, he's THE Robin and should be well known and respected among the superhero community before even becoming Nightwing. I don't think that status is respected enough if he's done with being Robin in 3-4 years and then we get a whole slew of others that have the mantle for the same amount of time