Is Batman Broken?

[Pohzee]

I've been mulling about this for a while between the Eternals and the upcoming 'Tec, as well as Duke's current push, but I think today's Rebirth special put the nail in the coffin for me. I believe that Batman, as a character, is broken.

I know that interpretation of fictional characters may vary by reader, but I think that most people can agree that Batman, boiled down to his most basic form, is a grim, solo crime fighter, whose stories are usually darker than most other superhero stories. The general public perception of Batman is, for better or worse, a dark and brooding (but badass) loner. Batman at his most recognizable has a small bit strong supporting cast. Most of the best and most iconic Batman stories like Year One, Arkham Asylum, and The Killing Joke have him working either solo or in coordination with a few cast members, like a Robin or police officers like Jim Gordon.

Recently however, Batman books have shifted away from this in favor of a large Bat-Family and ongoing cycle of new trainees. There seems to constantly be huge events involving the entire Bat-Family, which has swollen to the size of ten or larger, depending on how you look at it. This is an enormous supporting cast. It is larger than any other super hero supporting cast and is the size of the Justice League or Teen Titans.

The size that the Bat-Family is expanding at is unsustainable. Since the New 52 has started, Snyder has forced two characters into the Bat-Family. At this rate, it will soon be a Bat-Army that needs a Bat-City to live in! I won't say much about the quality of the new characters (though I do think that they are forced and unnecessary,) but I will say that they needlessly bloat the Bat-family that is already too large. It is far to large to effectively incorporate all of them into a story and goes against the mainstream perception of the character.

Another huge issue I have with Batman right now is the age of his partners. Every partner that he currently works is either a kid or started working with him as a kid. I think that this is really weird. I understood the reason that Robin was the kid sidekick of Batman: he needed to be more relatable to a younger demographic, but Robin filled that niche and that was all that was necessary (IMO.) Even this brought about pedophilic jokes about Batman's character and lead to questioning about the wiseness of involving a child in the war on crime. Now, Batman works with five teenagers! He exclusively works with teenagers, who move away from Batman once they reach adulthood. There was some justification of this for the Robins with the theme of "Batman needs a Robin" and that a new Robin would fill the place of the old one. Now, it has grown even beyond this. In addition to former Robins, Batman works with Duke, Harper Row, Cassandra Cain, and Stephanie Brown. All said and told, Batman has worked with 9 teenagers during his career.

Can you see how this changes the image of Batman from a dark vigilante into a teacher or a parent? This is no longer the Batman that fights a one man crusade against crime, or even someone who employs some help in his fight against crime. This makes him a teacher for young kids who will grow up to be superheroes.

I cannot help but feel that Batman comics have lost their path: that they have become too bogged down with making new sidekicks and have warped the character into a grown adult who spends all of his time fighting crime with a bunch of teenagers. It takes me out of the character and makes me question if this is the same character that got me into comics in the first place or if Batman comics are now a proxy for teenage superheroes.

I am fine with Batman having a teenage sidekick, it is an established part of his mythos, but right now the Batman books are so kid focus that they are nearly unrecognizable to me. I know that this is nothing new and that the Bat-family was still pretty bloated in the '90's and '00's with Cass, Tim, Steph, etc., but this issue has worsened as they continue to add more and more teenage characters to the Batman mythos.

I know that some people believe that a solo Batman has to be a "Bat-Dick" Batman that ignores his allies, but I disagree. I think that Batman can be written well without an entourage of undeveloped sidekicks. I feel as though Rebirth has been a missed opportunity to restore Batman to his more solitary roots, but they continue to push a team teenagers in Detective Comics and Duke in All-Star Batman and possibly King's Batman. It has entirely taken me out of the character and entirely changed my perception of the modern Batman.

[Lhynn]

The problem with robins leaving after they "graduate" comes from the fact that they want to operate more independently, and batman is a control freak that doesnt want them questioning him. Its his city and his rules. Dick and jason understood this.
Its one of the reasons he works with a robin, robin offers invaluable support, both in the field and at the cave. Robin keeps batman alive, having someone watch your back and someone to worry over keeps you from making mistakes or being reckles. Robin helps improve batman, this is important, but for any martial artist going back and practicing the basics every now and then helps a lot, he also gets to see his own method from a outside, which helps him refine them. Robins would have been lost without him, this is true for dick, jason, and damien. Batman needs an heir, he knows he is not going to live forever, and he cant die unless he knows someone will pick up the mantle and continue his work.

Tho i will agree, new 52 has cheapened batmans a lot, and has done the same with the role of his partner or sidekick. But its not the only problem with new 52. Villians are now batman fanboys that only want to see him ruined. Batman has no secrets anymore, everyone seems to know them. Untrained non meta humans are a threat, harper, duke, mother, hush, stephanie, etc. Can you give me a break? they should go down with a hard stare, yet they seem more capable than league of assassins elite for some reason.

[charliehustle415]

I've been mulling about this for a while between the Eternals and the upcoming 'Tec, as well as Duke's current push, but I think today's Rebirth special put the nail in the coffin for me. I believe that Batman, as a character, is broken.

I know that interpretation of fictional characters may vary by reader, but I think that most people can agree that Batman, boiled down to his most basic form, is a grim, solo crime fighter, whose stories are usually darker than most other superhero stories. The general public perception of Batman is, for better or worse, a dark and brooding (but badass) loner. Batman at his most recognizable has a small bit strong supporting cast. Most of the best and most iconic Batman stories like Year One, Arkham Asylum, and The Killing Joke have him working either solo or in coordination with a few cast members, like a Robin or police officers like Jim Gordon.

Recently however, Batman books have shifted away from this in favor of a large Bat-Family and ongoing cycle of new trainees. There seems to constantly be huge events involving the entire Bat-Family, which has swollen to the size of ten or larger, depending on how you look at it. This is an enormous supporting cast. It is larger than any other super hero supporting cast and is the size of the Justice League or Teen Titans.

The size that the Bat-Family is expanding at is unsustainable. Since the New 52 has started, Snyder has forced two characters into the Bat-Family. At this rate, it will soon be a Bat-Army that needs a Bat-City to live in! I won't say much about the quality of the new characters (though I do think that they are forced and unnecessary,) but I will say that they needlessly bloat the Bat-family that is already too large. It is far to large to effectively incorporate all of them into a story and goes against the mainstream perception of the character.

Another huge issue I have with Batman right now is the age of his partners. Every partner that he currently works is either a kid or started working with him as a kid. I think that this is really weird. I understood the reason that Robin was the kid sidekick of Batman: he needed to be more relatable to a younger demographic, but Robin filled that niche and that was all that was necessary (IMO.) Even this brought about pedophilic jokes about Batman's character and lead to questioning about the wiseness of involving a child in the war on crime. Now, Batman works with five teenagers! He exclusively works with teenagers, who move away from Batman once they reach adulthood. There was some justification of this for the Robins with the theme of "Batman needs a Robin" and that a new Robin would fill the place of the old one. Now, it has grown even beyond this. In addition to former Robins, Batman works with Duke, Harper Row, Cassandra Cain, and Stephanie Brown. All said and told, Batman has worked with 9 teenagers during his career.

Can you see how this changes the image of Batman from a dark vigilante into a teacher or a parent? This is no longer the Batman that fights a one man crusade against crime, or even someone who employs some help in his fight against crime. This makes him a teacher for young kids who will grow up to be superheroes.

I cannot help but feel that Batman comics have lost their path: that they have become too bogged down with making new sidekicks and have warped the character into a grown adult who spends all of his time fighting crime with a bunch of teenagers. It takes me out of the character and makes me question if this is the same character that got me into comics in the first place or if Batman comics are now a proxy for teenage superheroes.

I am fine with Batman having a teenage sidekick, it is an established part of his mythos, but right now the Batman books are so kid focus that they are nearly unrecognizable to me. I know that this is nothing new and that the Bat-family was still pretty bloated in the '90's and '00's with Cass, Tim, Steph, etc., but this issue has worsened as they continue to add more and more teenage characters to the Batman mythos.

I know that some people believe that a solo Batman has to be a "Bat-Dick" Batman that ignores his allies, but I disagree. I think that Batman can be written well without an entourage of undeveloped sidekicks. I feel as though Rebirth has been a missed opportunity to restore Batman to his more solitary roots, but they continue to push a team teenagers in Detective Comics and Duke in All-Star Batman and possibly King's Batman. It has entirely taken me out of the character and entirely changed my perception of the modern Batman.

I'm right there with you. This gives me the best opportunity to jump off. My favorite era is Morrison's, however, if you want great solo Bats read Brubaker/Rucka or Knightfall to No Man's Land era (which introduced me to Batman).

I liked Snyder's run, but he wasn't the one who started the "MOST EPICNESS EVA!" but he did perpetuate it a lot, the majority of his run are long arcs.

You also have to remember that other writers introduced new sidekicks too. Morrison introduced Damien, Rucka introduced Sasha Bordeaux (albeit she was his love interest also), then you had Azrael, Huntress, Tim Drake, Jason Todd, etc.

It's par for the course with Batman and his myriad of sidekicks, there will always be new sidekicks, some will stick, a lot will not.

[Beyonder595]

I think the issue your having with Batman, is more of an issue towards how Comics are being handled today
1. Modern Comics are made for Trade collecting
2. Comic book writers try to appeal to large areas of audiences, and sometimes most of that focus is on younger audiences. (a teenage charcters is far more relatable than a brooding adult character)

[Unfinishedsentenc]

And now Clayface is another member.... smh.

[godisawesome]

Batman's kind of an odd character; the vast bulk of his existance has been as a crime fighter who has both solo adventures and a partner in crime fighting. It's probably not much of an exaggeration to say that while most superheroes are perceived as either what we want to be when we grow up or standing in for ourselves in some way (usually as a kind of fantastic reader avatar), Batman is generally perceived as the father or older brother figure we wish we had. Think about it: Batman's usually stern and errs on the side of being too cautious and protective for his allies and friends; he's the classic authority figure even on the Justice League. He usually has at least two sidekicks operating with him in some way, shape or form; even Nolan's trilogy wound up giving Bruce a younger ally to mentor and inspire, and they went in saying they loathed the idea of Robin.

And I think this has lead to an odd impact on Batman when it comes to the eternal struggle of comics: the conflict between trying to mature and evolve the property while remaining familiar and formulaic enough for the dedicated, life-long reader and newcomers with a concrete idea of the characters. Generally, this struggle comes down pretty hard on the side of formula and repitition; there's a reason why Flash, Superman, and Spiderman are all single again, even though pretty much everyone liked their marriages. Batman, as a character, is probably seen as too much of a stable cash cow to ever experience true change.

His supporting cast, on the other hand....

...They can expand, evolve, grow up, get reinvented, and reproduce! So while Batman is generally still tied to the anchors of stagnation and repition (though usually still succeeding in being entertaining and staying fresh because he attracts so many great writers), his world gives the creators--and fans--an outlet for novelty and character development. That's why some fans were so angry at the New 52's handling of the Batfamily; it's usually the energetic and evolving area of Batman comics, and suddenly, everything was either regressed or paused...and suddenly the creators introduced new characters to get evolving again because that's what the Bat comics do. Fans who were looking forward to Red Robin developing flaws and confronting them, Batgirl continuing to show she'd earned her seat at the table, or Dick and Babs officially becoming senior partners to the family, were thrown off when everyone got glued back to a role they'd outgrown.

It's a bit like what happens in King Arthur literature; when the authors can evolve Arthur, that's what they focus on, but when they can't, he becomes the static character in a sprawling world of colorful knights and ladies.

For the record, I like a large Batfamily. But only if everyone gets to evolve a bit.

[Kingcrimsonprog]

I don't know why a large cast is such a turn off. X men has a large cast, Game Of Thrones has a large cast, Lost had a large cast. A large cast isn't such a problem in and of itself.
I get that you can say they've changed some things, but, so do people who only like the 1940s stuff with its 'Lookheer shee' gangster dialogue, or all the aliens and robots in the silver age. All that stuff has changed, so we can't get too protective of the late 80s and say its the 'real' Batman or anything.

[Lhynn]

I don't know why a large cast is such a turn off. X men has a large cast, Game Of Thrones has a large cast, Lost had a large cast. A large cast isn't such a problem in and of itself.
I get that you can say they've changed some things, but, so do people who only like the 1940s stuff with its 'Lookheer shee' gangster dialogue, or all the aliens and robots in the silver age. All that stuff has changed, so we can't get too protective of the late 80s and say its the 'real' Batman or anything.

Because not everything works. And throwing stuff at the wall in the hopes that something sticks tends to leave a messy wall.

[bat39]

I don't think its much of a problem if you take individual books, where Batman may either be solo or working with one or two partners. Its not like every single Batman story today has him with 9-10 partners. There's a book where he's solo, a book where he's partnering with Damian, a book where he and Batwoman are training a bunch of other heroes etc.

[phantom1592]

I agree with some of this... but certainly not all.

First, Batman has always been inconsistent with readers. There's this theory that Batman is some lone vigilante... But that's not true. It really was never true. Batman was introduced in Detective Comics 27 1939. Robin was introduced in Detective Comics 38 1940. There were ELEVEN issues with Batman as a lone vigilante...Only eleven months solo... and SEVENTY SIX YEARS with as a part of the Dynamic Duo. There were more issues where Superman couldn't fly then there were of Batman pre-Robin. Not to mention his stints on team books like JSA and JLA.


THAT said... I do believe they went WAY too far. The perfect Batfamily for me, was in the 80's and 90's. Batman. Nightwing. Batgirl/Oracle. Robin (Tim) Honorable mention Alfred... and Jason Todd as a dead memory. There really wasn't any story they couldn't tell with that as a core 'team'. Huntress would occasionally show up, but she was an outsider (not Batman's other team )

The first strike against them was the new Batgirl (Cass) then another New Batgirl (Steph) Then there was a Batwoman... But the worst of it all was bringing Jason Todd back. I still feel that was stupid. He served a purpose as a corpse and is just a joke as yet ANOTHER previously dead comic character. He was the Joker's great triumph... Batman's biggest failure.. and Tim's Cautionary tale. Now?? He's not much of anything. Damian was completely unnecessary. and the gluttony of cast that have shown up post 52 is staggering.

Robin was all he really needed. Dick started the role, Jason failed the role, Tim learned from both and perfected the role.

[Aahz]

I agree with some of this... but certainly not all.
Only eleven months solo... and SEVENTY SIX YEARS with as a part of the Dynamic Duo.

Not really from the late 60s when Dick went of the collage untill the early 80s when Jason appeared, Batman was for the most part a solo hero.
And Stories were Bruce and Tim act as Dynamic Duo are very rare, especially after Knightfall.
And Bruce and Damian hardly ever act as Dynamic Duo, even in "Batman and Robin" Damian was mostly working alone, and in most other Batman titles Damian hardly ever appears.

[Pohzee]

I can accept Batman having a teenage sidekick in Robin, but I think it gets weird when he has so many teenage sidekicks. This is a guy who seldom works with adults, but is seemingly willing to work with any teenager that throws themself at his feet. I can understand a larger supporting cast; I don't get why they are all kids.

[Nite-Wing]

Batman has changed well no that would be wrong his supporting cast has changed.
Right now you see nothing has happened to Batman as a character. No clone saga,No death, No continuity sweeping rewrites.
It would be hyperbole to say he's broken and then list off all the problems with his supporting cast.
Some people on this forum wanted the status quo to stay in the 90s forever. That didn't happen and there have been complaints ever since in some manner.

Which seems to be par for the course if everything isn't perfect there must be a problem with the comics.
Something that's really broken in the DCU?
Teen Titans

Batman has implemented changes that just happen to coincide with a huge bump in sales from the previous run. If there was a problem DC would ignore it

[SiegePerilous02]

This is the very reason I will be ignoring Detective Comics like the plague. I'm glad for the fans of all those characters that they're back, but I'm also glad they're all quarantined into one book so I can ignore them.

I agree with the OP. All these kids hanging off of Bruce's teats is obnoxious. It doesn't make sense for Bruce to be so sensitive to the dangers facing children and then recruit several of them into his brutal war on crime against psychos like the Joker. While a Robin and maybe a Batgirl have contributed to Batman's overall popularity (but there have also been periods where they've been detrimental to it), having four or five of each plus losers like Azrael and Batwing is way too damn much. It doesn't strengthen his character, it actually weakens him by killing some of his mystique and placing him in the boring Bat-Patriarch role. Is Wayne Manor turning into Hogwarts or something?

Aside from Dick and Barbara, you can cut them all right out of Batman's narrative and not negatively impact him in any way.

I don't know why a large cast is such a turn off. X men has a large cast, Game Of Thrones has a large cast, Lost had a large cast. A large cast isn't such a problem in and of itself.

The examples you listed are all ensemble stories without a clear main character. Batman is not that.
And the X-Men is the last franchise Batman needs to take inspiration from. That thing is a bloated mess with way too many characters, and it was designed to be a group comic from the beginning.

I agree with some of this... but certainly not all.

First, Batman has always been inconsistent with readers. There's this theory that Batman is some lone vigilante... But that's not true. It really was never true. Batman was introduced in Detective Comics 27 1939. Robin was introduced in Detective Comics 38 1940. There were ELEVEN issues with Batman as a lone vigilante...Only eleven months solo... and SEVENTY SIX YEARS with as a part of the Dynamic Duo. There were more issues where Superman couldn't fly then there were of Batman pre-Robin. Not to mention his stints on team books like JSA and JLA.

There were periods throughout Batman's history where he operated alone. In the Bronze Age (the best set up, IMO), Robin and Batgirl were recurring characters that mostly featured in back up stories while Batman was by himself in the main feature. B:TAS was heavily modeled after this period, which is why many of the episodes didn't feature Robin at all until Timm and co. were forced by the network to put him in more often. Plus, there was the Tim Burton films and the Batmania of that period, and Burton ultimately rejected putting Robin in. And it killed it at the box office, with Batman's reputation as being a darker character finally being restored. Nolan refused to use any sidekicks as well, and the Dark Knight was still a phenomenon.

So I'd say the popular perceptions of Batman are either the lone, spooky vigilante, or the guy that occasionally has help from one sidekick and a distaff counterpart. Not the principal of a high school for Bat-people.

[Lhynn]

losers like Azrael and Batwing

This made me laugh so hard, very good point there.

is way too damn much. It doesn't strengthen his character, it actually weakens him by killing some of his mystique and placing him in the boring Bat-Patriarch role. Is Wayne Manor turning into Hogwarts or something?

True

Aside from Dick and Barbara, you can cut them all right out of Batman's narrative and not negatively impact him in any way.

Eh, actually the 4 robins were accepted because they were needed in some capacity and worked with batman. Dick left, jason enriched the character of batman, tim was trained as a replaceament for batman, which was great because tim was often a character study of batman himself, usually bringing up stuff like how civilian life affected bruce, how to manage relationships, how to keep yourself from crossing lines. Nevermind that his training was aimed at what made batman great, his detective skills, how to deal with situations where he is outgunned, etc. So we got to see that develop too. Damien was there to rock the boat i guess, he was the first sidekick i guess was unnecesary. Batman didnt need to be a father, not with what he does.

And the X-Men is the last franchise Batman needs to take inspiration from.

Strongly agree here.

So I'd say the popular perceptions of Batman are either the lone, spooky vigilante, or the guy that occasionally has help from one sidekick and a distaff counterpart. Not the principal of a high school for Bat-people.

I agree, they catched on this back then when they made robin go solo. Shows up when needed, then moves out of the way to his own thing when batman needs his solo time. It was a thing of beauty.