Is Batman Broken?

[AlexanderLuthor]

Arguably, Batman has never been more popular. So...no

[Frontier]

As someone who doesn't mind an expanded Batfamily, teen sidekicks, and feel that they've generally added more to the franchise then they've detracted, I don't really see Batman as broken.

[phantom1592]

Again, I do think the family is too big.

I prefer the old days when Batman COULD work alone if he needed to. He was this great detective with inbound knowledge of criminal element, psychology, riddles, computers... whatever. Robin was a partner with similar skills but was mostly there as combat backup, or an extra set of hands in investigation...

I think that REALLY fell apart when Batgirl became Oracle. She just... took over all the thinking. Any question that was asked, she had an answer. Any door that needed opening, she could hack. The world switched to more computers... and she WAS the batcomputer. Then Cass showed up as the best bestest fighter ever... and Lucius started making the gear...

Batman wasn't... Batman anymore. It turned this epitome of training and intellect into basically the shadowy growly guy who scared people in the field and then asked for others to connect the clues for him. Now they've brought in more people to run the computers and caves and gear... I really don't see it ending well. In just the last few years, we've seen Bruce replaced by both Dick and Gordon... so he's really becoming redundant in his own books.

he's not BROKEN yet... It can be fixed easily enough, but I do see some danger there.

I think there's enough supporting cast right now, that Nightwing could take a few, Bruce get a few, and maybe Tim or Barbara get a few and fill out three solid books

[HaveAtThee]

Because like most big-name brands (Batman, Spider-Man, Superman, Hulk, etc.) both companies overproduce and bloat the **** out of them with a million spinoffs and legacy characters.

[godisawesome]

Again, I do think the family is too big.

I prefer the old days when Batman COULD work alone if he needed to. He was this great detective with inbound knowledge of criminal element, psychology, riddles, computers... whatever. Robin was a partner with similar skills but was mostly there as combat backup, or an extra set of hands in investigation...

I think that REALLY fell apart when Batgirl became Oracle. She just... took over all the thinking. Any question that was asked, she had an answer. Any door that needed opening, she could hack. The world switched to more computers... and she WAS the batcomputer. Then Cass showed up as the best bestest fighter ever... and Lucius started making the gear...

Batman wasn't... Batman anymore. It turned this epitome of training and intellect into basically the shadowy growly guy who scared people in the field and then asked for others to connect the clues for him. Now they've brought in more people to run the computers and caves and gear... I really don't see it ending well. In just the last few years, we've seen Bruce replaced by both Dick and Gordon... so he's really becoming redundant in his own books.

he's not BROKEN yet... It can be fixed easily enough, but I do see some danger there.

I think there's enough supporting cast right now, that Nightwing could take a few, Bruce get a few, and maybe Tim or Barbara get a few and fill out three solid books

It's interesting, but you're argument that the family having advantages lessening Batman is ironically the opposite of the problem I have in one of the media portrayals of the franchise: the Arkham games by Rocksteady. I tend to think that Batman is portrayed just a little bit too OP in the Rocksteady games in comparison to the cops and Bat-family; I feel the Rocksteady plots tend to make literally everyone else act stupider--especially the villains--to allow the player a power fantasy that hurts the game's story.

I like Bruce best when he's the best overall vigilante (tied with Dick) but not the best at everything. It's the same issue I have with Superman having OP powers; it hurts the impact and tension of the stories for the sake of hyping up the power fantasy. I like having other people (not just the Batfamily) have some areas where they have true advantages over Bruce, and then he creatively uses his other talents to beat them, instead of, say, just will-powering his way through Scarecrow toxin, or having no actual physical rivals in the Rocksteady games.

You can be at the peak of human physical conditioning...and still have someone who's stronger than you, but you can beat them because your the master of hundreds of martial arts. You can be the master of all martial arts...and still have someone who's a better fighter than you, but has no counter for a taser batarang. You can be the world's greatest detective...and still have a few people who can outplay you for a little bit before you catch on, but can't outlast you because of your willpower.

To me, the family remains the area where character development can happen, something that more and more editors and publishers are getting scared of. Nolan's Batman got to grow because he only had three films; the Arkham Games showed less development than they should have, but still maxed out the Joker conflict because they could evolve it; the comics would have done nothing new with Batmna if he didn't have a family. Or, alternatively, they would have done something new, but it likely would have ended up like Superman, with a thousand different schisms in the fandom.

Batman, and other heroes, get to change when their supporting cast gets to change. It gives the higher ups confidence that the creators can handle it, so they allow little changes. Batman got to show some flaws in his approach to other people because they wanted to move Dick away.

Having said that...yeah, I'm a little concerned the current family is crowded. But I don't blame it on the concept. I blame it on editorial making some horrible decisions. Cass and Tim were developing into true solo heroes; Tim was striking out on his own and Cas was in Hong Kong. Oracle and the Birds of Prey were always more associates of the Batfamily than full time members; it may have stunk for some people when Bruce would contact Babs for clues, but it wasn't actually something you'd see every issue. The Batfamily before the New 52 was expanding, but expanding outward. During my life, the Batfamily has never been smaller than 4 people, but most of the time, at least two or three of those people were far away from Gotham and the main Batman books.

Editorial got scared that the mere existance of two other Batgirls who were literally oceans away from Gotham would hurt Babsgirl. Editorial thought that Dick Grayson should be Nightwing again and operate as an ancillary to Batman in Gotham, instead of having one Batman be the Gotham guy and the other the globe-traveler. Editorial thought that Tim Drake, a character with an impressively long solo run, should fulfil Dick's old role on Teen Titans. And editorial kept telling guys like Scott Snyder and Morrison they couldn't do some things even though it was Snyder and Morrison!

We could have had several solo heroes away from Gotham. Instead, we've got a crowded mess because marketing tried to fix things.

[SiegePerilous02]

This is true. there are always writers trying to go back and push the lone vigilante concept. However my point was that, that claiming this was his 'core principle' was a falsehood. For just as long as there has been Batman... there has been 'Batman and Robin'. The terms themselves are like peanut butter and Jelly. It's not like Superman/Supergirl or Krypto... it's not like Aquaman and Aqualad... Robin was a MAJOR part of Batman's history, and even when the comics did have him go to college in the 70's, he was still a back up strip, in the Titans, and all over the cartoons.

It's probably an instance where the "true Batman" (if there is such a thing) is somewhere between the lone vigilante and one who has a small, close circle of allies that float in and out of the story. Like a lot of us agree on, the best setup is the Bronze Age/B:TAS one that allows for Batman to be both. But the current version where he can't turn around without bumping into another kid who he has to train and equip? Yeah, not for me.

Surviving. He was the one who failed at the training. He became known as the angry one... the reckless one... the one who showed all the others what happens if you don't follow orders and that specter hung over the cave for years with that trophy case.

Bringing him back? It really negated so much of what he was great at. Now he leans less from 'poor kid who got in over his head....' to 'jerkface who kinda deserved it.'

Jason's death didn't really have anything to do with his competence, but his mother betraying him to the Joker. His disobeying orders didn't play any part in his death.

But I agree that bringing him back was a waste, because they clearly had no idea what to do with him after the shock wore off. If they had committed to making him a straight up villain that would be one thing, but this "the Bad Boy of the Robin Boy Band" thing they have going on now is for the birds.

Again, I do think the family is too big.

I prefer the old days when Batman COULD work alone if he needed to. He was this great detective with inbound knowledge of criminal element, psychology, riddles, computers... whatever. Robin was a partner with similar skills but was mostly there as combat backup, or an extra set of hands in investigation...

I think that REALLY fell apart when Batgirl became Oracle. She just... took over all the thinking. Any question that was asked, she had an answer. Any door that needed opening, she could hack. The world switched to more computers... and she WAS the batcomputer. Then Cass showed up as the best bestest fighter ever... and Lucius started making the gear...

Batman wasn't... Batman anymore. It turned this epitome of training and intellect into basically the shadowy growly guy who scared people in the field and then asked for others to connect the clues for him. Now they've brought in more people to run the computers and caves and gear... I really don't see it ending well. In just the last few years, we've seen Bruce replaced by both Dick and Gordon... so he's really becoming redundant in his own books.

Yeah, the Bat-Family each being super awesome in one particular field does create the potential for Batman to become redundant. Oracle could somehow run the world if you put a computer in front of her, Cass can beat anybody in a fight, it's been constantly stated that Tim has the potential to be a better detective than Bruce and is already a better one than Dick, and Dick is the best leader who isn't allowed to lead anything (otherwise I guess he's the...nicest? And has the best ass?). If the main character is in danger of becoming redundant, maybe something is wrong.

Because like most big-name brands (Batman, Spider-Man, Superman, Hulk, etc.) both companies overproduce and bloat the **** out of them with a million spinoffs and legacy characters.

Agreed. Never mind Batman, Spider-Man is the very last character who needs a superhero family surrounding him. Batman at least has had Robin from close to the beginning. Spidey being the underdog on his own is one of the main appeals of the character.

[dominus]

Because like most big-name brands (Batman, Spider-Man, Superman, Hulk, etc.) both companies overproduce and bloat the **** out of them with a million spinoffs and legacy characters.

Hulk?

Spider-Man, Batman, and Superman almost always have had 2-3 (and sometimes more) titles, but I can't remember any time the Hulk being that popular.

[SmokeMonster]

I don't see the problem with a big bat-family.

If we can have a lot of X-Men, Amazons, magicians at Hogwarts, etc, why can't we have a load of Bat disciples? Just give them each something unique.

[Frontier]

It's probably an instance where the "true Batman" (if there is such a thing) is somewhere between the lone vigilante and one who has a small, close circle of allies that float in and out of the story. Like a lot of us agree on, the best setup is the Bronze Age/B:TAS one that allows for Batman to be both. But the current version where he can't turn around without bumping into another kid who he has to train and equip? Yeah, not for me.

Just because there's an expanded Batfamily doesn't mean you still can't do stories about Batman as a solo hero on his own. That's all on the writer and what they want to do.

But I agree that bringing him back was a waste, because they clearly had no idea what to do with him after the shock wore off. If they had committed to making him a straight up villain that would be one thing, but this "the Bad Boy of the Robin Boy Band" thing they have going on now is for the birds.

If the character is still around and has had as many books as Jason has at this point, they must be doing something right or appealing to some kind of audience.

Yeah, the Bat-Family each being super awesome in one particular field does create the potential for Batman to become redundant. Oracle could somehow run the world if you put a computer in front of her, Cass can beat anybody in a fight, it's been constantly stated that Tim has the potential to be a better detective than Bruce and is already a better one than Dick, and Dick is the best leader who isn't allowed to lead anything (otherwise I guess he's the...nicest? And has the best ass?). If the main character is in danger of becoming redundant, maybe something is wrong.

godiawesome touched on this, but each Batfamily member having a specialty they excel at doesn't make Batman redundant, it just makes him a jack of all stats who's impressive because he's skilled in all those areas rather then just having a specific specialty, which basically makes him the best crime-fighter.

[Pohzee]

I don't see the problem with a big bat-family.

If we can have a lot of X-Men, Amazons, magicians at Hogwarts, etc, why can't we have a load of Bat disciples? Just give them each something unique.

Yup, that is pretty much why I am against it. Batman isn't Dumbledore or Professor X, he's the Goddamn Batman.

(Not insulting you, just using the meme FYI)

[phantom1592]

It's interesting, but you're argument that the family having advantages lessening Batman is ironically the opposite of the problem I have in one of the media portrayals of the franchise: the Arkham games by Rocksteady. I tend to think that Batman is portrayed just a little bit too OP in the Rocksteady games in comparison to the cops and Bat-family; I feel the Rocksteady plots tend to make literally everyone else act stupider--especially the villains--to allow the player a power fantasy that hurts the game's story.

Heehehe. I love the Arkham games. I just finished Arkham Knight today actually. Main story not all the side quests... but I only had the PS4 for 5 days, so I'm still geeked about it. I'll admit I was pretty annoyed when I had take out like 54 drones or something and missed TWO... and I get that cut scene of all the cops everywhere dying because I failed. >.<

C'MON!!! They can't handle TWO?!!?

I like Bruce best when he's the best overall vigilante (tied with Dick) but not the best at everything. It's the same issue I have with Superman having OP powers; it hurts the impact and tension of the stories for the sake of hyping up the power fantasy. I like having other people (not just the Batfamily) have some areas where they have true advantages over Bruce, and then he creatively uses his other talents to beat them, instead of, say, just will-powering his way through Scarecrow toxin, or having no actual physical rivals in the Rocksteady games.

You can be at the peak of human physical conditioning...and still have someone who's stronger than you, but you can beat them because your the master of hundreds of martial arts. You can be the master of all martial arts...and still have someone who's a better fighter than you, but has no counter for a taser batarang. You can be the world's greatest detective...and still have a few people who can outplay you for a little bit before you catch on, but can't outlast you because of your willpower.

I think one of the biggest issues with Batman's 'power level' is the way the world has changed. This is my favorite origin story by far for Batman... I got my reprint back in 89.

Attachment 36403

In it, it talks about how he studied psychology and criminology.. and chemistry... Everything he thought he would need, and then taught Robin the same.

This means that Batman has the fighting skills to mess people up... he can analyze a poison and create an antitode for fear toxin or joker gas... he can build a supped up car... decipher the clues of a madman... All believable real-world concepts ala Sherlock Holmes. That is a great Batman.

NOW... Everything is digitized. Facial recognition. Retinal scans... The tech he deals with isn't just freeze guns anymore... it's rebuilding Red Tornado and Teleporters to the Satellite... It just go too far for a 'humanish' character.

I think there is a middle ground between 'best at everything' Batman and 'needs a whole network of experts' Batman.

[phantom1592]

Hulk?

Spider-Man, Batman, and Superman almost always have had 2-3 (and sometimes more) titles, but I can't remember any time the Hulk being that popular.

maybe Hulk didn't get spin of characters, but he has a TON of legacy characters. Green Hulk, Red Hulk, She-Hulk, Blue Hulk (A-bomb), Skar: son of Hulk... Who all had a show together, and now totally awesome Hulk?? Even with one main book, that's a pretty big Hulk family. Especially when the main power is Strong.

[oasis1313]

I think a good way to handle all these kiddie supporting characters would be to use the Batman inc concept--as they grow and improve themselves, they are given a city under the auspices of Batman Inc. The topflight ex-Robins like Dick could be The Law for London, Jason could clean up Moscow, Tim could go to--I dunno--someplace like Tehran where his chances of being killed are good, Duke could take on Capetown, Jean-Paul Valley in Paris. You could work your way up from Mayberry to Mumbai.

[Agent Z]

This is true. there are always writers trying to go back and push the lone vigilante concept. However my point was that, that claiming this was his 'core principle' was a falsehood. For just as long as there has been Batman... there has been 'Batman and Robin'. The terms themselves are like peanut butter and Jelly. It's not like Superman/Supergirl or Krypto... it's not like Aquaman and Aqualad... Robin was a MAJOR part of Batman's history, and even when the comics did have him go to college in the 70's, he was still a back up strip, in the Titans, and all over the cartoons.




Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of bloodbaths... however, I REALLY think there should be some sidekick deaths... and KEEP them dead. Jason was such a wonderful win for Joker. It propelled him up far and away to the #1 spot in villandom. It created a terror for the other sidekicks. It created a burning hatred in Batman. It made everything personal.

Downside... Anyone they killed now, I either would REALLY miss (Dick, Tim, Barbara) or Not care at all about (Harper, Duke, etc.) Damian was already killed... Jason was killed, Steph was killed... they all came back. Honestly, i'd like to see someone OTHER then the Joker get a solid win on some of these lesser sidekicks. I just played Arkham Knight and it makes Scarecrow a serious threat... Let him kill off someone? Let Two Face get a hit in... Let someone OTHER then Joker be a real threat for a change.





Surviving. He was the one who failed at the training. He became known as the angry one... the reckless one... the one who showed all the others what happens if you don't follow orders and that specter hung over the cave for years with that trophy case.

Bringing him back? It really negated so much of what he was great at. Now he leans less from 'poor kid who got in over his head....' to 'jerkface who kinda deserved it.'

Jason never deserved what the Joker did to him. This is revisionist history by writers who didn't like him in the first place.

[Agent Z]

Again, I do think the family is too big.

I prefer the old days when Batman COULD work alone if he needed to. He was this great detective with inbound knowledge of criminal element, psychology, riddles, computers... whatever. Robin was a partner with similar skills but was mostly there as combat backup, or an extra set of hands in investigation...

I think that REALLY fell apart when Batgirl became Oracle. She just... took over all the thinking. Any question that was asked, she had an answer. Any door that needed opening, she could hack. The world switched to more computers... and she WAS the batcomputer. Then Cass showed up as the best bestest fighter ever... and Lucius started making the gear...

Batman wasn't... Batman anymore. It turned this epitome of training and intellect into basically the shadowy growly guy who scared people in the field and then asked for others to connect the clues for him. Now they've brought in more people to run the computers and caves and gear... I really don't see it ending well. In just the last few years, we've seen Bruce replaced by both Dick and Gordon... so he's really becoming redundant in his own books.

he's not BROKEN yet... It can be fixed easily enough, but I do see some danger there.

I think there's enough supporting cast right now, that Nightwing could take a few, Bruce get a few, and maybe Tim or Barbara get a few and fill out three solid books

Batman has never been alone. And Oracle didn't appear in every Batman comic.