Will recent edgy dark line override everything about Superman?

[catman]

Recently, I often see comment like that recent grim dark line like DCEU or Injustice will destroy everything Superman has made for more than 70 years.
They say like that benevolent Sun God is no more, Boy scout is no more, edggy and grim dark Superman will be everything people around the world remember.
What do you in this forum think about such a statement?
For me, I think that even world wide movie can't change Superman's image as good guy and benevolent saviour.

[manduck37]

I don't think there is any danger of any type of "grimdark" overtones destroying what Superman is. Most of the time, comments about things like Injustice or the films or even some of the comics are more of an emotional reaction than actually what is presented. Injustice gets mentioned a lot as something that can damage what Superman is. It presents a Superman gone bad who becomes a dictator that conquers the world. Though lets not forget that a good version of Superman comes along to ultimately stop him. So the only thing that can stop a Superman is a Superman, so to speak, and the good version wins out. Some people say that Superman in the current comics is too much of a bully or a jerk. Yet there are dozens of cases where he's shown to be compassionate, caring and a force for good that no one can deny. The films have been pretty controversial too lately. I've only seen Man of Steel, which I enjoyed. That movie didn't present a grimdark Superman, just a Superman that struggles with his ultimate place in the world, at first. He comes to realize that he should use his gifts to help people and is shown rescuing soldiers during combat, trying to move fights from populated areas and all kinds of truly Superman things. While I haven't seen Batman vs Superman, from what I've heard it presents the idea that those who feel Superman is a threat or could be a force for evil are completely wrong. Superman even inspires change in the people around him through his actions, including the vindictive Batman we see.

So really the idea that all these pop culture representations are trying to make Superman all grim and gritty are really just surface reactions. If you look at what the stories are actually telling us, it's quite the opposite. Superman is still the good hearted hero we love. Those shown to oppose what he stands for are clearly represented as wrong. It seems to me that people everywhere, whether they read comics or not, want Superman to be the hero they know and love. We're still getting that.

Granted, you may not agree with the choices various creators in the comic, game, or film industry make. You may not like the comics, games or movies. That's perfectly ok. Though there doesn't seem to be any real evidence to support the idea that anyone is trying to destroy Superman or that people's perceptions of Superman will change and he'll be viewed differently.

[catman]

I don't think there is any danger of any type of "grimdark" overtones destroying what Superman is. Most of the time, comments about things like Injustice or the films or even some of the comics are more of an emotional reaction than actually what is presented. Injustice gets mentioned a lot as something that can damage what Superman is. It presents a Superman gone bad who becomes a dictator that conquers the world. Though lets not forget that a good version of Superman comes along to ultimately stop him. So the only thing that can stop a Superman is a Superman, so to speak, and the good version wins out. Some people say that Superman in the current comics is too much of a bully or a jerk. Yet there are dozens of cases where he's shown to be compassionate, caring and a force for good that no one can deny. The films have been pretty controversial too lately. I've only seen Man of Steel, which I enjoyed. That movie didn't present a grimdark Superman, just a Superman that struggles with his ultimate place in the world, at first. He comes to realize that he should use his gifts to help people and is shown rescuing soldiers during combat, trying to move fights from populated areas and all kinds of truly Superman things. While I haven't seen Batman vs Superman, from what I've heard it presents the idea that those who feel Superman is a threat or could be a force for evil are completely wrong. Superman even inspires change in the people around him through his actions, including the vindictive Batman we see.

So really the idea that all these pop culture representations are trying to make Superman all grim and gritty are really just surface reactions. If you look at what the stories are actually telling us, it's quite the opposite. Superman is still the good hearted hero we love. Those shown to oppose what he stands for are clearly represented as wrong. It seems to me that people everywhere, whether they read comics or not, want Superman to be the hero they know and love. We're still getting that.

Granted, you may not agree with the choices various creators in the comic, game, or film industry make. You may not like the comics, games or movies. That's perfectly ok. Though there doesn't seem to be any real evidence to support the idea that anyone is trying to destroy Superman or that people's perceptions of Superman will change and he'll be viewed differently.

Thank you for your perfect answer.
I totally agree with you. In fact, I couldn't understand their reasoning. Indeed, DCEU is superficially grim dark and edggy. But Superman is still Superman we know. He helps people at any cost and save the day. I have few opposition about the movie but i can accept that. I coudn't think that grim dark and edggy line will override SUperman's image around the world.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I don't think Superman is becoming dark. In the comics he's been shown as edgy, but that's it. And in the movies, The DCEU world is a reflection of our own, as much as a movie can reflect it. As manduck said, we see him struggling, trying to figure out how (and if) he fits in this world.

[Osiris-Rex]

I don't think Superman is becoming dark. In the comics he's been shown as edgy, but that's it. And in the movies, The DCEU world is a reflection of our own, as much as a movie can reflect it. As manduck said, we see him struggling, trying to figure out how (and if) he fits in this world.

Superman was created as a reflection of his time. When Superman was created the US was still mired in the Great Depression and WW2 was beginning. Superman was created to give hope to a very depressing world. Compared to then we live in a relative paradise. So I guess we no longer need a symbol of hope like Superman because things are too easy. Bringing hope to a world that doesn't need hope is an outdated concept.

[Flash Gordon]

Superman was created as a reflection of his time. When Superman was created the US was still mired in the Great Depression and WW2 was beginning. Superman was created to give hope to a very depressing world. Compared to then we live in a relative paradise. So I guess we no longer need a symbol of hope like Superman because things are too easy. Bringing hope to a world that doesn't need hope is an outdated concept.

Actually we are living in a time that's somewhat similar, economically. The breadlines are a little less visible but the poverty level is sky high.

Superman is needed now more than ever.

[Ascended]

Actually we are living in a time that's somewhat similar, economically. The breadlines are a little less visible but the poverty level is sky high.

Superman is needed now more than ever.

This.

The world reflects the time Superman was made in moreso than at any other point since his inception.

Trust in government is at a ridiculous low and politics have once more become a circus. Corruption is rampant and willfully visible and little is actually done to fix it. Poverty and wealth inequality are running high, actual unemployment is high, and even higher if you include the partially employed.

Things are a lot better today than they ever used to be. There's no such thing as "the good old days" but that's not to say that things today are in that great a spot either.

The things that made Superman a phenomenon in '38 are the things we still need him for today.

Everything else? All that crap about grimdark and being edgy? Been a talking point for, at an absolute minimum, 30 years. Superman is still around and still a good guy. And thirty years from now that's likely still going to be true.

[Jon Clark]

This.

The world reflects the time Superman was made in moreso than at any other point since his inception.

Trust in government is at a ridiculous low and politics have once more become a circus. Corruption is rampant and willfully visible and little is actually done to fix it. Poverty and wealth inequality are running high, actual unemployment is high, and even higher if you include the partially employed.

Things are a lot better today than they ever used to be. There's no such thing as "the good old days" but that's not to say that things today are in that great a spot either.

The things that made Superman a phenomenon in '38 are the things we still need him for today.

Everything else? All that crap about grimdark and being edgy? Been a talking point for, at an absolute minimum, 30 years. Superman is still around and still a good guy. And thirty years from now that's likely still going to be true.

The thing is that as time change so do the perceptions of people living in them. Stuff that 30 years ago would have been pushing the envelope are now commonplace. But to someone looking at it in 2016 it seems it was always commonplace. Even is many cases people who would have never believed it could be commonplace in 1986 have become used to things.

In the case of Superman the concept of who was the real identity in 1985 (pre-Byrne) wasn't really much of a debate, now you have camps of "Clark is who I am, Superman is what I can do" and "who disguised as Clark Kent" fans who can go back and forth for pages. In the early 1980's few questioned the morality of Superman or the JLA erasing the memories of bad guys who learned a secret identity. Now it seems to be an automatic sign that heroes are fascists.

So I can't buy into the idea that Superman is somehow immune to grimdark. If anything Smallville, Superman Returns and the opening salvos of the DCEU have put a very different Superman out there for the general public. In the comics Truth tears down the concept of Superman having a secret identity, Lois&Clark presents a Superman who operates from the shadows and doesn't turn his foes over to the authorities. I can easily picture fans on a site like this in 2028 looking at the classic Superman the same way fans in the 1990's looked at the Space-age Batman or the Adam West series- hopelessly Pollyanna silliness.

[Ascended]

The thing is that as time change so do the perceptions of people living in them. Stuff that 30 years ago would have been pushing the envelope are now commonplace. But to someone looking at it in 2016 it seems it was always commonplace. Even is many cases people who would have never believed it could be commonplace in 1986 have become used to things.

In the case of Superman the concept of who was the real identity in 1985 (pre-Byrne) wasn't really much of a debate, now you have camps of "Clark is who I am, Superman is what I can do" and "who disguised as Clark Kent" fans who can go back and forth for pages. In the early 1980's few questioned the morality of Superman or the JLA erasing the memories of bad guys who learned a secret identity. Now it seems to be an automatic sign that heroes are fascists.

So I can't buy into the idea that Superman is somehow immune to grimdark. If anything Smallville, Superman Returns and the opening salvos of the DCEU have put a very different Superman out there for the general public. In the comics Truth tears down the concept of Superman having a secret identity, Lois&Clark presents a Superman who operates from the shadows and doesn't turn his foes over to the authorities. I can easily picture fans on a site like this in 2028 looking at the classic Superman the same way fans in the 1990's looked at the Space-age Batman or the Adam West series- hopelessly Pollyanna silliness.

All true, and once upon a time Superman was a sexist racist too, who would spank a woman for getting uppity.

But at any era since his creation, Superman has represented the best of us. What that actually means changes, but Superman is always there on the forefront of it.

The stories told today might seem grimdark and edgy by the standards of thirty years ago, just as the stories told today might seem quaint and simple in thirty years, and Superman's personality will shift to accommodate whatever tomorrow brings. But he'll still be the guy pointing towards a better tomorrow, by whatever standards the day holds to.

Superman's not immune to "grimdark" as stories like Injustice show. But its not where he lives and that has never changed and likely isnt going to (outside of the occasional Elseworld or storyline of course). But what you're saying is that Superman is not trapped in amber and changes with the times. This is true, and it should be. Man of Tomorrow, not Man of 1950.

And let's not forget that in his early years Superman was more violent and anti-authority than he's ever been since. Being "edgy" is built into the character's DNA.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Superman was created as a reflection of his time. When Superman was created the US was still mired in the Great Depression and WW2 was beginning. Superman was created to give hope to a very depressing world. Compared to then we live in a relative paradise. So I guess we no longer need a symbol of hope like Superman because things are too easy. Bringing hope to a world that doesn't need hope is an outdated concept.

The concept is not outdated, IMO. I also think we do need hope. Thing is, that unlike when Superman was created back in 1938, that this is a society that somewhat has come to accept the darkness in the world, and thus DON'T WANT hope.

[Ascended]

The concept is not outdated, IMO. I also think we do need hope. Thing is, that unlike when Superman was created back in 1938, that this is a society that somewhat has come to accept the darkness in the world, and thus DON'T WANT hope.

But couldnt this be applied to nearly any time in human history?

If anything, I'd say the rise in popularity of the superhero in pop culture (we've even had vigilantes show up in LA and London!) and "outsider" political candidates like Sanders and (gods help us all) Trump shows that people are indeed looking for heroes who can change things for the better and change the status quo.

I'd hazard a guess that Superman's struggle stems from thirty years of DC screwing him up and a false sense of him being outdated among the general public (which has also been a thing since the 60's if not sooner).

However, Im not really a student of human history or sociology so Im just guessing here.

[DieHard200904]

But couldnt this be applied to nearly any time in human history?

If anything, I'd say the rise in popularity of the superhero in pop culture (we've even had vigilantes show up in LA and London!) and "outsider" political candidates like Sanders and (gods help us all) Trump shows that people are indeed looking for heroes who can change things for the better and change the status quo.

I'd hazard a guess that Superman's struggle stems from thirty years of DC screwing him up and a false sense of him being outdated among the general public (which has also been a thing since the 60's if not sooner).

However, Im not really a student of human history or sociology so Im just guessing here.

My take on gritty material like The Walking Dead being so popular is that people like it because it's fiction, and because that dark and gritty material is fiction, it essentially is arguably giving someone a type of assurance that this (insert fictional scenario) will not happen. It's a hot topic in sociology right now, as to why the gritty material is becoming the popular fiction right now.

[Ascended]

Is it? I took sociology last year (or was it two years ago?), but we just covered the basic stuff (it was a 100 level class, just a general requirement). If you have any links to articles about it, I'd love to read them. If not, no worries, I'll go troll Google.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

But couldnt this be applied to nearly any time in human history?

If anything, I'd say the rise in popularity of the superhero in pop culture (we've even had vigilantes show up in LA and London!) and "outsider" political candidates like Sanders and (gods help us all) Trump shows that people are indeed looking for heroes who can change things for the better and change the status quo.

Yeah, you may very well be right. Thing is, back then people didn't have an icon of hope that could appeal to as many people as Superman does (or did). Christians had (and still have of course) Jesus for example, but I'd argue it's not the same. And Muslims and Jews have other characters perhaps. Superman can reach them all.

Besides, there's the fact that nowadays we have a more "in your face" negative attitude towards hope: you know, hope is stupid/ for idiots/ naive, why should I have any hope when the world's clearly going to Hell, that kind of stuff.

I'd hazard a guess that Superman's struggle stems from thirty years of DC screwing him up and a false sense of him being outdated among the general public (which has also been a thing since the 60's if not sooner).

However, Im not really a student of human history or sociology so Im just guessing here.

No arguments from me here.

[Ascended]

Besides, there's the fact that nowadays we have a more "in your face" negative attitude towards hope: you know, hope is stupid/ for idiots/ naive, why should I have any hope when the world's clearly going to Hell, that kind of stuff.

But is that a new development? Like I said, Im not a history student, but Id imagine this isnt the first era where "hope" was seen as an unpopular concept. I mean, we're pretty jaded and cynical, and I think perhaps we're more desensitized to violence and other bad things than ever before (thanks to the 24/7 news cycle and the rise of sensationalist newscasting) but cynicism isnt new.

Not trying to argue for the sake of it or anything, but this is a topic Im relatively uneducated about so Im digging.

Good point about Superman reaching all people, rather than just a section of them, by the way. That universality is key.