Is liking Slott's work a generational thing?

[Pav]

He isn't human just a monster with humanity.

What do you think humans are, exactly?

-Pav, who sees a lot of monsters out there...

[Spidercide]

What do you think humans are, exactly?

-Pav, who sees a lot of monsters out there...

You know what I mean.

Connors was a guy who was born as a baby and grew up with life experiences just like everyone else. The Lizard is nothing like that.

[DCordo74]

To be frank I'm not a fan of his interpretation of Spider-man. I didn't even like the highly praised Superior Spider-man run, it had good ideas, but poor execution. It took way too much suspension of disbelief to get me to believe MJ or Aunt May wouldn't figure it out. MJ doesn't because she "senses" Peter's soul, but mainly it was because she was being written like a dumbass and out of character. And Aunt May is a senile old lady who can't tell when her "son" is being an out of character douche-nozzle. Then they promoted MJ maybe getting raped like it was super funny and suspenseful? I remember the cover, yes they did. And maybe Doc Ock jerked off with Peter's wee-wee? It's pretty obvious that's what those pages were implying. You don't just think of a pretty lady and be done with it. That's not how one "relieves" themselves. And the thought of Otto Octavius...the fat man with tentacles and a bowl hair cut jerking it to MJ using Peter's memories and...you know...is just unbelievably gross. And maybe SpOCKraped Anna Maria...even though not really cause he loved her...even though she thought it was Peter....even though yes he did. But who cares? Because he loved her, so it's ok. I just can't with that mess.

Also his dialogue always seems super unnatural and forced.

I think he has some interesting ideas that could potentially bring about some emotional stakes...if it were written by someone who cared about doing that. Does Peter still forgive Otto? Yep! What a load. Recently, he sees the ex who apparently his soul is pleading in agony to be with. What does he do? Act like a creepy possessive loser who seems like he's trying to compensate for something. And he does the same thing with Miles. Great. What a hero. Also when Tony Stark is acting more like a gentleman than Peter Parker something is messy.

TBH it seems like he doesn't really like Peter Parker. Maybe he likes his world? But Peter Parker? Eh? It doesn't come across that way.

I've never met the guy, so I can't say for sure. I'm just going by what I've read of his new Spider-man. This seems harsh, but it's just how I feel. And not everything is his doing I'm sure. And the guy does seem genuinely funny and he has written some great stuff outside of Spider-man. It's just that I've just never really liked him for Spider-man. But I don't think it's a generational thing, just a taste thing.

[Peter Parker]

I think he has some interesting ideas that could potentially bring about some emotional stakes...if it were written by someone who cared about doing that. Does Peter still forgive Otto? Yep! What a load.

It still feels like the third part of Slotts Spider_man/Doctor Octopus story has yet to be written.

[Spidercide]

To be frank I'm not a fan of his interpretation of Spider-man. I didn't even like the highly praised Superior Spider-man run, it had good ideas, but poor execution. It took way too much suspension of disbelief to get me to believe MJ or Aunt May wouldn't figure it out. MJ doesn't because she "senses" Peter's soul, but mainly it was because she was being written like a dumbass and out of character. And Aunt May is a senile old lady who can't tell when her "son" is being an out of character douche-nozzle. Then they promoted MJ maybe getting raped like it was super funny and suspenseful? I remember the cover, yes they did. And maybe Doc Ock jerked off with Peter's wee-wee? It's pretty obvious that's what those pages were implying. You don't just think of a pretty lady and be done with it. That's not how one "relieves" themselves. And the thought of Otto Octavius...the fat man with tentacles and a bowl hair cut jerking it to MJ using Peter's memories and...you know...is just unbelievably gross. And maybe SpOCKraped Anna Maria...even though not really cause he loved her...even though she thought it was Peter....even though yes he did. But who cares? Because he loved her, so it's ok. I just can't with that mess.

Also his dialogue always seems super unnatural and forced.

I think he has some interesting ideas that could potentially bring about some emotional stakes...if it were written by someone who cared about doing that. Does Peter still forgive Otto? Yep! What a load. Recently, he sees the ex who apparently his soul is pleading in agony to be with. What does he do? Act like a creepy possessive loser who seems like he's trying to compensate for something. And he does the same thing with Miles. Great. What a hero. Also when Tony Stark is acting more like a gentleman than Peter Parker something is messy.

TBH it seems like he doesn't really like Peter Parker. Maybe he likes his world? But Peter Parker? Eh? It doesn't come across that way.

I've never met the guy, so I can't say for sure. I'm just going by what I've read of his new Spider-man. This seems harsh, but it's just how I feel. And not everything is his doing I'm sure. And the guy does seem genuinely funny and he has written some great stuff outside of Spider-man. It's just that I've just never really liked him for Spider-man. But I don't think it's a generational thing, just a taste thing.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is why I don't understand people likeing Superior or Slott's run.

This isn't a preferential thing.

All that stuff said above happened on the page but people just ignore it even though they aren't things you can just handwave. They are big, big, big deals.

If Superior Spider-Man only works by having everyone be unbeleivably stupid it cannot by definition actually be a GOOD story. It's not the 1970s anymore, standards changed a long ass time ago and that shit doesn't fly anymore. You HAVE to come up with an explanation for this stuff that would otherwise mean your plot doesn't work and you HAVE to address the human emotions.

[Spidercide]

It still feels like the third part of Slotts Spider_man/Doctor Octopus story has yet to be written.

But he still shouldn't forgive him in the first place.

[David Walton]

If Superior Spider-Man only works by having everyone be unbeleivably stupid it cannot by definition actually be a GOOD story.

On the other hand, if you're not willing to allow characters to make poor decisions or be blinded to obvious truths, it's hard to imagine any Marvel comic that qualifies as a good story.

I don't mean to suggest your interpretation of the characters is 'wrong' or that you should read anything that doesn't bring you joy.

But there are times where you can be the guy who says, "No one would ever be stupid enough to open the locked door in that haunted house!" or the one who thinks, "Man, things are about to get exciting!"

[David Walton]

But he still shouldn't forgive him in the first place.

Peter's very much an "in the moment" kind of guy, and he doesn't tend to hold onto his anger when the consequences of an evil action turn out okay. Besides, Ock had a redemptive moment and gave Peter his body back, and there wasn't any irreparable damage to his life.

[Spidercide]

On the other hand, if you're not willing to allow characters to make poor decisions or be blinded to obvious truths, it's hard to imagine any Marvel comic that qualifies as a good story.

I don't mean to suggest your interpretation of the characters is 'wrong' or that you should read anything that doesn't bring you joy.

But there are times where you can be the guy who says, "No one would ever be stupid enough to open the locked door in that haunted house!" or the one who thinks, "Man, things are about to get exciting!"

Peter's very much an "in the moment" kind of guy, and he doesn't tend to hold onto his anger when the consequences of an evil action turn out okay. Besides, Ock had a redemptive moment and gave Peter his body back, and there wasn't any irreparable damage to his life.

There is a line though.

There is “This character has made a poor decision which is believable in the context of the story and the world they have established” and then there is having someone you’ve known very intimately most of your life acting nothing like they have ever acted before out of the blue for inexplicable reasons when you have studied psychology.

Peter not helping Harry when Gwen died or choosing to save Gwen the way he did in ASM #121. That’s a poor decision. But that was okay because it’s believable anybody would make those decisions in those moments.

This went beyond the pale by leaps and bounds. Putting aside Skrulls and shapeshifters and corrupting symbiotes in this world, Mary Jane and Aunt May specifically have experience dealing with clones, robotic imposters and the Chameleon all of which acted more like Peter than Otto did. That’s an established thing in the past stories of the narrative and thus set a precedent even beyond how unrealistic it was for anyone to be so blasé about Peter’s new behaviour.

At the same time your examples are examples inherent to a genre wherein suspension of disbelief is permissible for the story to work at all based upon a long tradition of such things.

It’s engrained into the genre that people don’t figure out heroes’ identities despite obvious evidence. No one should be stupid enough to not figure out Peter is Spider-Man. But that’s encoded into the DNA of the genre and this specific series, being there from day 1 and is necessary to make the series a s whole work and be interesting, or at least interesting within it’s core concept. Spider-Man’s identity being public forbids him from being a normal guy so you can’t go there.

This is something wholly different and the narrative doesn’t work on an ‘in for a penny in for a pound’ mentality, specifically Spider-Man which defined itself long ago by not going along with the same degrees of unrealism Superior did.

Spider-Man is supposed to be relatively believable and the characters are supposed to act relatively realistically within the confines of the drama of the story. This crossed the line very obviously to go well beyond being undramatic because it was too unrealistic by modern standards and even the standards of the 1980s when similar story points had the characters not act the way they did. E.g. MJ was able to deduce Kraven was not Peter during KLH because he was brutalizing thugs to near death. Otto does the same thing and we even have MJ acknowledge and be shocked by this but she doesn’t even entertain the same possibility that Peter isn’t Peter. That this is a Skrull, or a mutant shapeshifter, or an LMD like Peter’s parents, or a clone like Kaine or Spidercide whom she’s MET or the Chameleon whom she also met. And ALL of them acted more like Peter than Otto did.

Like I said, there is a line, a balance you have to work within and Superior didn’t do it. if you are THAT unrealistic your story is broken.

....not really...Peter held onto animostity with Jonah and Flash for years, in addition to beef with Otto over Aunt May, the Jackal, Venom and of course Norman and Harry Osborn. He forgave Harry because Harry was not a well man. He could even forgive Liz Allan for her transgressions because of what she was going through and because ultimately her friendship wasn’t worth losing for the sake of a grudge. He is also Godfather to her child and her second biggest transgression against him was when she was OOC. But I don’t think he’d ever forgive her for what happened during Civil War. That was too much.

The end result for Peter didn’t turn out okay though. He was a victim of murder, theft, he’d lost a whole year of his life, his relationship with Mary Jane was destroyed, the city hated him, the Avengers initially mistrusted him, his body had been used to commit murder and other crimes, he now had the massive responsibility of managing a company who’s employees depended upon him and he was bodily violated.

This is not a situation by any means which turned out okay for him even if the story treats it like it did. That just goes to prove how bad Slott is at his job. There was a LOT of irrepearable damage because Peter’s never getting that year back. Peter isn’t going to forget the sensation of dying and being erased from existence. Realistically Peter isn’t going to forget that Otto touched and used his body against his will and dabbled in his memories without his consent, with Superior #2 being a prime horrific example. I can maybe just about No. Prize that one to minimize that damage but I shouldn’t have to be doing that.

It’d be one thing if this was Kraven’s Last Hunt and the experience made Peter appreciate all the good things in his life by putting him through Hell but it wasn’t like that. When that story was over with he walked away traumatized yes with 2 weeks gone from his life but he still had everything he had before so for that he could pull through and be thankful for thanks largely to MJ’s presence as the story made clear.

Here Peter walked away having lost much more than he gained all because one villain decided to be especially cruel to hurt him. That same villain who’d tried to commit genocide twice, take advantage of his aunt more than once and hospitalized his girlfriend the Black Cat, this time putting her in jail and setting her against him. And who also choked his wife once.

It’s not unrealistic for someone to forgive the person who did all that to them, but those people are exceedingly rare and have like the patience of saints. Peter doesn’t and Peter shouldn’t because he’s supposed to be a more moralistic version of most people, or at least certain types of most people.

But for a kid bullied a lot in school, who’s already lost so much for a clear cut evil guy like Otto to do something so clear cut evil and cruel to him which when over has cost him a lot and realistically should leave him with a fair amount of anger, upset and probably trauma...he would not forgive that person. No one would.

Otto had a redemptive moment. But that’s like saying the guy who stole my car and joyrided it, changed the engine, colour scheme and interiors, whilst smashing it up and hitting me with it a few times gave it back and said they were sorry before skipping town so they couldn’t really answer any of the legal ramifications for their actions...so I would totally forgive him.

No. That guy’s ass is going to jail.

I mean think about it if Norman Osborn took a bullet to save Peter out of the goodness of his heart is that going to mean Peter would forgive him for all the things he’s done, of which killing Gwen isn’t even the worst thing?

Did Peter ever forgive the burglar who is even the person who’s hurt him the most in his life? Was he okay letting the Red Skull get away with murdering his parents? Did he bury the hatchet with Chameleon over his hand in building the robot duplicates of his parents?

Hell no he did not.

So why should he forgive Otto for this?

I know they are different people but given how she was the root of most of his morality, if Aunt May never forgave the burglar or the Vulture for what they did to her, or the robot parents or Norman once she knew the truth why is Peter going to forgive Otto for any of this?

Also consider how whether it's physcial harm, property damage or some form os psychological trauma (even something like being physically threatened without actually being physically touched at all, being made to feel vulnerable and helpless basically) things which don't last or haven't done visible or irreparable harm are still not okay and people still go through a lot to get themselves, their lives, etc back to the way they were and tend not to be fond of the culprit of those crimes.

Even if Peter was ultimately okay and got everything he lost back, he'd still have to go through a lot to get back to where he was.

[David Walton]

Otto paid the ultimate price when he gave his life for Peter to come back.

[Spidercide]

Otto paid the ultimate price when he gave his life for Peter to come back.

That doesn't absolve him of everything he did. At most it absolves him of killing Peter, but that wasn't all he did. Peter is never getting that year back. He still has to live with the memories of what Otto did to him. And that's not even everything he did.

Also Peter still held a certain amount of animosity towards Harry and Norman after they'd seemingly died. So even if Peter isn't going to spend every waking moment angry at Otto he isn't going to forgive him for what he did nor hold him in a civil light. Peter would at the very least regard Otto as a very, very bad guy who had a moment of decency that helped in some small way to even the scales but never actually balanced them. He was a murderer and a thief who gave back the life he wrongfully took in the first place. He didn't fix things, he just fixed them slightly by giving up his own life after he'd taken and damaged many other people's.

That doesn't make you a hero or worthy of forgivness. if this was a court of law it'd simply score him a somewhat lighter sentence for his crimes but he'd still be going to jail hardcore.

And besides, it was OOC for Otto to even do that quite frankly.

[David Walton]

That doesn't absolve him of everything he did. At most it absolves him of killing Peter, but that wasn't all he did. Peter is never getting that year back. He still has to live with the memories of what Otto did to him. And that's not even everything he did.

Also Peter still held a certain amount of animosity towards Harry and Norman after they'd seemingly died. So even if Peter isn't going to spend every waking moment angry at Otto he isn't going to forgive him for what he did nor hold him in a civil light. Peter would at the very least regard Otto as a very, very bad guy who had a moment of decency that helped in some small way to even the scales but never actually balanced them. He was a murderer and a thief who gave back the life he wrongfully took in the first place. He didn't fix things, he just fixed them slightly by giving up his own life after he'd taken and damaged many other people's.

As far as the moral implications, I'd refer you to Luke chapter 15 (the parable of the lost sheep, coin and prodigal son).

"I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent."

That doesn't make you a hero or worthy of forgivness. if this was a court of law it'd simply score him a somewhat lighter sentence for his crimes but he'd still be going to jail hardcore.

You can't sentence a dead man.

And besides, it was OOC for Otto to even do that quite frankly.

It was and it wasn't. The premise of the story is that a bit of Peter's upbringing and inherent decency get baked into Otto's character. Think of it like that Ostrander Spectre story where Corrigan uses his own conscience to jumpstart the Joker's.

So there's an in-universe explanation as to why Ock does something out of character.

[MJS]

On the other hand, if you're not willing to allow characters to make poor decisions or be blinded to obvious truths, it's hard to imagine any Marvel comic that qualifies as a good story.

I don't mean to suggest your interpretation of the characters is 'wrong' or that you should read anything that doesn't bring you joy.

But there are times where you can be the guy who says, "No one would ever be stupid enough to open the locked door in that haunted house!" or the one who thinks, "Man, things are about to get exciting!"

Good drama does come from flawed characters.

But Superior did not have flawed characters.

Superior had badly written characters.

Superior forced characters to forget their pasts, forget their powers, forget their established personalities and forget their resources just so Dan Slott could move the story from Lego playset A to playset B. Slott is a plot driven writer who treats characters like Lego minifigs. All that matters is the minifig ends up where Slott's diagram says the minfig needs to be. And then when the story is over, the minifig goes back into the Lego box as if nothing happened to it.

That might be fun for Lego builders, but it is a bad way to tell a story.

[Zeitgeist]

I don't believe so OP! I started reading Spider-Man comics in the early 90's, and I've liked a lot of what Slott has put out over his run. He lost me a little with the volume that came after Superior Spider-Man (which I loved) but barring the occasional characterisation misfire he's decent.

[manymade1]

To be frank I'm not a fan of his interpretation of Spider-man. I didn't even like the highly praised Superior Spider-man run, it had good ideas, but poor execution. It took way too much suspension of disbelief to get me to believe MJ or Aunt May wouldn't figure it out. MJ doesn't because she "senses" Peter's soul, but mainly it was because she was being written like a dumbass and out of character. And Aunt May is a senile old lady who can't tell when her "son" is being an out of character douche-nozzle. Then they promoted MJ maybe getting raped like it was super funny and suspenseful? I remember the cover, yes they did. And maybe Doc Ock jerked off with Peter's wee-wee? It's pretty obvious that's what those pages were implying. You don't just think of a pretty lady and be done with it. That's not how one "relieves" themselves. And the thought of Otto Octavius...the fat man with tentacles and a bowl hair cut jerking it to MJ using Peter's memories and...you know...is just unbelievably gross. And maybe SpOCKraped Anna Maria...even though not really cause he loved her...even though she thought it was Peter....even though yes he did. But who cares? Because he loved her, so it's ok. I just can't with that mess.

Does this actually happen?