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  1. #1246
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think we're likely too deep into the 5G stuff to put the brakes on completely. Creators are already probably well into their plans, and it takes time to change direction. 5G might not end up lasting, but if it gets tossed, then that's just another huge shift/reboot/direction change within ten years. That's not good for the industry either.
    I don't know about that. If they walk in Monday and say 5G is not happening, it would not be that difficult to tweak. The only real midstream change we'd see would be Wonder Woman. They could still put out all the Generation books and then just let things continue on without changing the main line. Let 5G either die on the vine or spin it off into something self contained like an Ultimate line. I think that is probably the most likely scenario actually. Particularly if the rumors about people like Snyder not even really wanting 5G to impact their books.

    I think they've known for a long time the direct market is a dead end that'll kill us all. The problem is escaping it. Didio might be a traditionalist but he's the guy who brought us same-day digital, the earth-1 OGN's, and imprints designed to cater to new fans. He knew we needed to get away from the Diamond Deal, he just couldn't pull the entire company out of it. And really, expecting one guy to be able to do that is asking too much of anyone.
    We have same day digital, at a price point that makes no sense - and that has been imposed specifically to protect the direct market. There is no logical reason a digital comic should cost as much as a physical one other than to protect the direct market. Amazon would sell them for $0.99 and kill the direct market in a heartbeat. Comixology is probably salivating at the thought right now. It's possible Didio didn't want to go far enough and those higher up, whether Lifford or some AT&T suit, finally had enough of that. Stuff like Earth 1 has had a negligible impact really. The recent younger reader OGN's seem to be far more important and successful independent of the direct market than Earth One ever was. Selling 30,000 or even 150,000 direct market books to diamond likely is barely a factor for AT&T.

    I know everyone is excited about this, but let's hold off on breaking out the good scotch. We don't know how it's going to end, who will replace Didio, nothing. Y'all gonna be super happy when Harras or Lee takes over?
    Harras is supposedly the one who was all about protecting people like Berganza. So yeah, he definitely needs to go. I'd be shocked if he sticks around. Jim Lee just seems like he's content to go with the corporate flow and I've gotten the sense he wants to follow Johns trajectory given he's been involved more and more in the TV and movie side of things.

  2. #1247
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I don't know about that. If they walk in Monday and say 5G is not happening, it would not be that difficult to tweak. The only real midstream change we'd see would be Wonder Woman. They could still put out all the Generation books and then just let things continue on without changing the main line. Let 5G either die on the vine or spin it off into something self contained like an Ultimate line. I think that is probably the most likely scenario actually. Particularly if the rumors about people like Snyder not even really wanting 5G to impact their books.
    I wont be surprised at all if 5G is killed off, but what I was saying is that there may not be time to abandon it completely before it starts. How deep are the creators into these books right now? How much time would it take to change those plans and start production on new issues, which would have to be put together from scratch? Those generations one-shots are supposed to come out once a month, so there's time before the 5G shift would hit the main line, but comics have a 4-6 month lead-time and something like this, which is building a new continuity and doing a lot of world building, would probably take longer. So how far into those plans are they, and how quickly could they reverse course? 5G might die quickly but depending on where DC is at on the production level, we might see some of it anyway if they can't get replacement products finished fast enough.

    I'm sure a lot of people don't want 5G to happen, but comics take time to make. Do they have time to change direction, or will we end up getting a little 5G before those changes hit the shelves?

    We have same day digital, at a price point that makes no sense - and that has been imposed specifically to protect the direct market. There is no logical reason a digital comic should cost as much as a physical one other than to protect the direct market. Amazon would sell them for $0.99 and kill the direct market in a heartbeat. Comixology is probably salivating at the thought right now. It's possible Didio didn't want to go far enough and those higher up, whether Lifford or some AT&T suit, finally had enough of that. Stuff like Earth 1 has had a negligible impact really. The recent younger reader OGN's seem to be far more important and successful independent of the direct market than Earth One ever was. Selling 30,000 or even 150,000 direct market books to diamond likely is barely a factor for AT&T.
    You're not wrong, but that's still more than anyone else has done. Marvel didn't get same-day digital going, nor did they start the big push for OGN's aimed at the bookstore and YA crowd. I'm not saying Didio handled these initiatives well, but even a halfass effort is more than the other guys put in. And I can't totally blame Didio either; we need to escape the direct market but right now, the direct market is what's keeping the bills paid. Digital settled at what, about 10% of direct market sales? If digital had been 99 cents, maybe that would have gotten all of us to switch and maybe it would've brought in a lot of new fans too. Or maybe all the people who said no to digital in 2011 would've still said no, digital would've settled at 15% of the DM instead of 10% and pissed off every retailer from Maine to California, and that could've ended up doing a lot of damage to DC. It's untested waters, and while a big part of me says "go big or go home" and "never halfass two things, whole ass one thing" I'm also not the guy responsible for all those jobs either. It's a tough situation to be in, I can't blame Didio for being cautious, even if it might have been the wrong call.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  3. #1248
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    My hope is that with the 5G thing, they just craft the history and generations as they were going to in the first place. Try to create the best possible and cohesive as possible history. And just move forward from there, have that be the initiative, creating that template. Just forgetting the property-wide legacy bullshit. That in of itself could be advertised as an "event". The Lost History of the DCU or something. Obviously I have no clue how far along they are, but my mindset is hoping they're only so far along right now insofar as still working on those Generation tales and that the replacement stuff hasn't started yet anyway. But that's just a hope, I don't know that.

    With stuff that's already been trending toward that replacement idea, like Legion and Jon, I dunno, just make the mission more about the Legion recruiting Superman's son in a quest to restore their own history to its rightful state. That they know their history is wrong and Clark is supposed to be part of it but for some paradoxical reason they couldn't ask Superman himself to help with this one. When all is fixed Jon can stay with the classic Legion, just that they're now older and have their history with the first Superboy back intact.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 02-22-2020 at 10:08 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  4. #1249
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    My hope is that with the 5G thing, they just craft the history and generations as they were going to in the first place. Try to create the best possible and cohesive as possible history. And just move forward from there, have that be the initiative, creating that template. Just forgetting the property-wide legacy bullshit. That in of itself could be advertised as an "event". The Lost History of the DCU or something. Obviously I have no clue how far along they are, but my mindset is hoping they're only so far along right now insofar as still working on those Generation tales and that the replacement stuff hasn't started yet anyway. But that's just a hope, I don't know that.

    With stuff that's already been trending toward that replacement idea, like Legion and Jon, I dunno, just make the mission more about the Legion recruiting Superman's son in a quest to restore their own history to its rightful state. That they know their history is wrong and Clark is supposed to be part of it but for some paradoxical reason they couldn't ask Superman himself to help with this one. When all is fixed Jon can stay with the classic Legion, just that they're now older and have their history with the first Superboy back intact.
    How about no? The age up is still widely unpopular to the point many wished it didn't happen.

  5. #1250
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    :shrug: I don't care either way, de-age him, keep him the same, that's not even on my radar of concern. My main concern is Superman and in order of importance: Scrap the idiotic plan to replace him, and restore his total history if that's the ultimate aim for the main canon. They need to stop singling him out to give parts of his storied history to other characters.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 02-22-2020 at 04:25 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  6. #1251
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    I don't even like Jon but that's just me.

  7. #1252
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    With the whole 5G thing, depending on how the generations stuff goes they could just kill it. When you step back and look at it theres nothing wrong with 1G-4G and doing a cohesive timeline, something people have been wanting since New 52, so if 5G doesn't get called out specifically in those books you could just sweep it under the rug and walk a way whistling. The only in print mention of it was in Doomsday Clock which mentioned a lot of **** that we know isn't going to happen, like that Marvel tease, so just ignore it and continue on. The only real hick up is if all the teams on the books are fully preparing to wrap for 5G and they have no body signed to work on books.

  8. #1253
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    :shrug: I don't care either way, de-age him, keep him the same, that's not even on my radar of concern. My main concern is Superman and in order of importance: Scrap the idiotic plan to replace him, and restore his total history if that's the ultimate aim for the main canon. They need to stop singling him out to give parts of his storied history to other characters.
    You won't see me argue this.

  9. #1254
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Just out of curiosity, would you care if he was de-aged but stayed with the Legion in that state?
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  10. #1255
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Just out of curiosity, would you care if he was de-aged but stayed with the Legion in that state?
    I would. Firstly, it's just slotting him into Clark's place, which I dislike (even though I dislike Clark ever being Superboy and prefer the golden age to silver age setup - prefer post-COIE version over silver age too, though I prefer powers from day one and besides for a long time Superboy and Superman weren't even in the same continuity). I hate that all the other members of the family seem to lose more individuality or be made to fit into roles built for Clark. Secondly, one thing I loved about Jon was his normal-kidness, despite his powers. School and friends and so on. And I loved the family aspect. Which means Clark, Lois, and Jon all under one roof. Lastly, it puts him scarily close to "kid mascot" or "token kid" category - not usually a good place to be. Don't want him regarded as Danny-Chase-like. And he's very much not their peer in that place. I didn't like Traya in that role in YJ, either (like her family-aspect in pre-COIE).
    Last edited by Tzigone; 02-22-2020 at 08:20 PM.

  11. #1256
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Just out of curiosity, would you care if he was de-aged but stayed with the Legion in that state?
    I would. Create a legacy legion for jon. Then we are golden. Kid jon in space future summer school would have been awesome. Have clark be a teacher as a guest. Bring in jon's cast back. A fun book for all ages. Heck! Have them introduce iron giant or create a character "inspired" by them, if that's not available due to copyright . It would be the kid and his robot.
    My point is build the character separately from clark with his own cast. So that if he has to, he can stand on his own feet away from clark. . The way i feel is the more jon stays away from superman books the better.superman and lois can be guests in jon's book. He is a superson. The parents need to be there.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-24-2020 at 12:05 PM.

  12. #1257
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Just out of curiosity, would you care if he was de-aged but stayed with the Legion in that state?
    To echo the others, yes I would. Legion is Clark's. Let him keep it. Jon should be able to be his own person, not Clark 2.0 that Bendis has been pushing. Let Jon be a kid, with his family, with his friends. Have him go on adventures with Damian, Maya, and Kathy. While at the same time, he has to get good grades at school or else no capes for the weekend. Have Lois actually care for him, and not put a story before her family. You know, like when they all were stuck on Apokolyps and Lois even faced the Furies to protect her husband and son.

  13. #1258
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Supergirl was not cancelled for sales reasons per BC:

    An informed source confirms that the series wasn't cancelled for sales – artist Rachael Stott already said it was actually extended two issues from where/when it was supposed to end. It's cancelled in May because DC doesn't want to reveal what happens to Supergirl after she's Infected ahead of Death Metal.
    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02...ero-editorial/

    This kind of report really underlines how little comic fans actually understand about the business side. Obviously, sales below 20,000 no longer warrant cancellation. Which isn't surprising given the overall state of the comic direct market. A book like Supergirl can truck along on 20K or lower monthly sales for years.

  14. #1259
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Interesting answers, thanks guys. Personally I don't mind other Super characters having time time with the Legion. Supergirl's time was pretty classic, almost equal to that of Superboy's, and Conner while not as big had some cool moments too. I only care that Superman's time was taken away. Unless the Legion simply were not to exist in a specific continuity, doing that to me is a pretty big slap in the face.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  15. #1260
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Supergirl was not cancelled for sales reasons per BC:



    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02...ero-editorial/

    This kind of report really underlines how little comic fans actually understand about the business side. Obviously, sales below 20,000 no longer warrant cancellation. Which isn't surprising given the overall state of the comic direct market. A book like Supergirl can truck along on 20K or lower monthly sales for years.
    I think a lot of us forget that production costs are different for different books too. Like, a creative team on the low end of the pay scale can keep a book profitable at 20K while another creative team that gets paid more might not. There's so many factors in cost analysis, and we have no way to know what's what, all we have is an incomplete picture of units sold, and that doesn't take much of anything into account.

    And that's not even getting into the creative accounting that can make a book look more or less profitable, depending on how you assign your costs and overhead.

    And of course, most of us aren't in publishing either. There's tricks to that kind of industry that're unique to it, and that sorta stuff changes things too. Even those of us who know business theory only have a vague idea of how DC operates.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

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