Keeping track of Post-Rebirth Superman sales

[Yoda]

Flash is Flash and Superman is Superman.....hasn’t Williamson has been on Flash for like somewhere in the ballpark of 90ish issues?

Doesn't really change the reality that the entire market has contracted significantly. If you look at the rankings over the years, the sales numbers that would put a book in the back 50 in 2013-2014 are like top 50 book now. Superman is still selling well for where it is on the chart and the market. Action's sliding a bit, but these are still relatively successful books for DC within the context of where things are now. Bendis dropping below Tomasi's run at this point isn't really that surprising.

With comic sales over the next couple of months likely to tank across the board over the next couple of months, depending on how things go.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

I mean, I’ll agree that mediocre comics getting mediocre sales isn’t surprising. I mean look at Dc. They clearly have zero faith in 5G, why should readers? It’s a mess.

[Ascended]

I’m leaning onto the opinion that the Geoff Johns vs Dan Didio thing was fabricated by fans. Don’t know if there’s any real evidence of that. But if there were, and I’m pretty sure neither of them “won” in the end big picture wise

I'm sure a lot of the rumors and what was said to be happening was pure conjecture, but it does seem like there was some sort of rift behind the scenes. We had Johns launch Rebirth, and that was definitely his baby; supposedly he even worked out all the premises and basics with each book's writer.

Then all of a sudden he lost the chief creative officer position and the comics started changing direction, most often heading in directions that seemed to have Didio's fingerprints (or at least sensibilities) on them. Clock (and Shazam, for what that's worth) kept getting delayed for whatever reasons, and DC ended up lifting the embargo on the Legion and JSA, once Clock had been going for a year (or more?) with only half it's issues out.

I don't know if Didio and Johns were butting heads or what. After the demotion Johns said he didn't want to be the guy giving orders anymore, and he does still have a big role in larger media stuff I guess, so maybe that's all it was; after getting Rebirth rolling he decided it was a bigger pain than it was worth, or maybe just couldn't handle the workload. But it always sounded like trying to put the best spin on things, to me. That whole, "Oh I didnt really want the promotion anyway so I'm glad I didn't get it" kind of thing.

Johns' fall from DC's highest ranking offices and the swift change in Rebirth makes me think something did go down. But who knows?

[Sam]

Sheesh has anyone looked at the sales for the rest of DC’s books? Bendis’ Superman may be below 40k but it’s still one of DC’s top selling books at the moment. Willamson Flash is down in the 20k’s and so is WW. I actually don’t think Bendis will get replaced unless DC does another big Rebirth creative team shakeup where everyone switches books. Everything else is in the 30-40k range even books like Justice League are down to 42k. There’s no question that a relaunch is coming at this point. 5G was clearly initially meant to be that relaunch but now who knows? One positive of this pandemic is it will give DC more time to figure out what they want to do post-Didio. FCBD being cancelled means that Gen 0 one shot will be delayed.

Both Wonder Woman and Flash were last relaunched in 2016 with Rebirth. Bendis's Superman happened much more recently, and DC has been promoting the hell out of it over the past two years. It has been dropping readers by the thousands the last couple months, and this month even had a card stock variant, which is supposed to actually boost those numbers. Unquestionably, DC has had problems across the board, but that doesn't mean you can deny that Bends's books specifically have been getting significant softer sales than DC would like, particularly since the identity reveal, which was supposed to be the bold new direction for the character.

[Sam]

Doesn't really change the reality that the entire market has contracted significantly. If you look at the rankings over the years, the sales numbers that would put a book in the back 50 in 2013-2014 are like top 50 book now. Superman is still selling well for where it is on the chart and the market. Action's sliding a bit, but these are still relatively successful books for DC within the context of where things are now. Bendis dropping below Tomasi's run at this point isn't really that surprising.

With comic sales over the next couple of months likely to tank across the board over the next couple of months, depending on how things go.

Superman during the Rebirth years tended to be in the top 20 or top 25 of books sold each month. This past month it was 34th, I believe. So it's not holding it's position on the charts even when comparing it to how other books are selling at the moment.

[Yoda]

Superman during the Rebirth years tended to be in the top 20 or top 25 of books sold each month. This past month it was 34th, I believe. So it's not holding it's position on the charts even when comparing it to how other books are selling at the moment.

By the Apokalypse arc is was ranked at 35 and 36 with 47.8K then 45.4K in sales (for the 34th and 35th issues). Action got a boost into the 20's in that time frame with the lenticular covers for Oz Effect.

I also looked at the percentages a while back and Superman and Action under Bendis were dropping readers at basically the same rate as, and in many cases better than, most other books. Not sure if that's still true, but the idea that readers were fleeing in numbers that were unique to Bendis wasn't true for at least the first year.

[Ascended]

If you wanna bring sales into it, I figure you can always read the numbers in a few different ways to support your side of the argument. But what I think works as objectively as possible is looking at the rate of sales atrophy.

The market changes, competition changes, blah blah blah. But if you want to know how a book is doing, look at the percentage of readers it's losing compared to everyone else.

Sales rankings are good too, hell it's all good depending on what exactly you wanna analyze, but if you want to know if Bendis is doing worse or better than the previous guys, compare the atrophy rates.

[Sam]

By the Apokalypse arc is was ranked at 35 and 36 with 47.8K then 45.4K in sales (for the 34th and 35th issues). Action got a boost into the 20's in that time frame with the lenticular covers for Oz Effect.

I also looked at the percentages a while back and Superman and Action under Bendis were dropping readers at basically the same rate as, and in many cases better than, most other books. Not sure if that's still true, but the idea that readers were fleeing in numbers that were unique to Bendis wasn't true for at least the first year.

Not in the first year, we're talking the last few months, since the identity reveal. The title dropped 4,000 units this past month. That's a lot.

As for the Tomasi Apokalypse arc, that happened to occur during a few month period where the very successful and numerous Dark Nights: Metal tie-ins pushed other titles down the rankings for a few months. Superman was ranked in the 20s before and after that 2 or 3 month period.

[BBally]

I mean, I’ll agree that mediocre comics getting mediocre sales isn’t surprising. I mean look at Dc. They clearly have zero faith in 5G, why should readers? It’s a mess.

Not always, Superman Smashes The Klan was a really good mini series but each issue only got around 10k, hopefully the trade will do better.

The previous run of Marvel's Champions under Jim Zub has been a good read for the most part but it underperformed, I don't think it was because of the comic's quality itself but more that readers were burned by the run before it when it was written by Mark Waid, which wasn't one of his best works (his attitude outside the comics including trying to have someone's comic blacklisted didn't help either) plus the title under Zub was also a relaunch with a new numbering when people were beyond sick of comic relaunches. Also the Champions title including the classic 1975 team wasn't one of Marvel's highest regarded title in fact from what I understand the original 1975 run is seen as a failed superhero team series.

[Yoda]

Not in the first year, we're talking the last few months, since the identity reveal. The title dropped 4,000 units this past month. That's a lot.

How much of that could be attributable to a drop off of the speculators ? Superman and Action were in the low 40's by February 2018 as well, but were charting in the 20's at that point.

As for the Tomasi Apokalypse arc, that happened to occur during a few month period where the very successful and numerous Dark Nights: Metal tie-ins pushed other titles down the rankings for a few months. Superman was ranked in the 20s before and after that 2 or 3 month period.

You could say the same thing with Marvel's X-books right now. There's been a resurgence of interest and popularity with secondary titles like New Mutants, Excalibur, and X-Force charting ahead of Superman, along with like 3 new X-Men #1's last month.

I'm not saying the books sales aren't sliding bit. I don't know that you can say anything is a "failure" given the realities of the market. But it seems disingenuous to argue that had they kept Tomasi & Jurgen's going on these books we'd be in any better shape. In all likelihood they would have slid well into the low 30's long before now because they were definitely heading in that direction.

[Lvenger]

The difference is Tomasi and Jurgens would have slipped into the 30Ks by their 50th issues whereas Bendis' Superman titles is already in the 30Ks after 20 issues on each series. And this is from a month of comic sales prior to the virus pandemic which will have a further negative impact on sales. It's a pretty clear indication that the identity reveal storyline has not gone down well with the fans. A 4,000 unit drop in the space of a month can't be dismissed solely due to a natural drop in interest.

[Sam]

How much of that could be attributable to a drop off of the speculators ? Superman and Action were in the low 40's by February 2018 as well, but were charting in the 20's at that point.

None, I would say. Not sure why speculators would be interested in issue 19 and not issue 20. 18 was the one that might have gotten some speculator interest given the heavy promotion. Plus, 20 had a card stock variant, which could have possibly appealed to speculators, but that was the issue that was down by 40000 units.

You could say the same thing with Marvel's X-books right now. There's been a resurgence of interest and popularity with secondary titles like New Mutants, Excalibur, and X-Force charting ahead of Superman, along with like 3 new X-Men #1's last month.

I would have agreed with you if this were October when Marvel was launching a bunch of new first issues and Superman was ranked 50th for that month (while selling more than it did this month), but things have settle quite a bit and Superman being ranked in the 30s has been a fairly common thing. The reality is there are also going to be some new #1, so that is usually already accounted for. It's when you have an extreme amount of first issues or even tie-ins that the top really gets bloated.

I'm not saying the books sales aren't sliding bit. I don't know that you can say anything is a "failure" given the realities of the market. But it seems disingenuous to argue that had they kept Tomasi & Jurgen's going on these books we'd be in any better shape. In all likelihood they would have slid well into the low 30's long before now because they were definitely heading in that direction.

When you lose 4000 units between months (with the obvious exceptions of coming down from first couple issues, crossovers, and special issues), I think you can safely say that something is going wrong. While I don't think you can call Bendis's entire run a failure sales-wise (though I can't imagine its numbers haven't been at least a disappointment to DC), you can pretty safely say that the identity reveal has failed to attract people to the book, in fact, it seems to be having the opposite effect.

As for would they have been better off keeping Tomasi and Jurgens's on the title, that hypothetical is impossible to answer definitively because we don't know. There are too many factors to consider. They might have continued to slowly lose readers, but they might have found ways to bring people back to the title (like Jurgens's did with The Oz Effect). Assuming the titles would have slid into the low 30s by now is just as disingenuous as claiming that they wouldn't have. That said, what we can say based on the information is that Tomasi and Jurgens were able to sustain reader interest better for over twice as many issues. Factor in that under those writers those titles shipped two issues a month resulting in twice the profit, the heavy amount of promotion DC has undergone to pimp out Bendis's projects, and the likelihood that Bendis negotiated better pay for himself than either Tomasi or Jurgens, and suddenly there is a case to be made that maybe staying the course could of been a better call. It's impossible to say either way, but it's certainly unfair to rule the idea out completely.

[Celgress]

The difference is Tomasi and Jurgens would have slipped into the 30Ks by their 50th issues whereas Bendis' Superman titles is already in the 30Ks after 20 issues on each series. And this is from a month of comic sales prior to the virus pandemic which will have a further negative impact on sales. It's a pretty clear indication that the identity reveal storyline has not gone down well with the fans. A 4,000 unit drop in the space of a month can't be dismissed solely due to a natural drop in interest.

This is a valid point. I know I've dropped Bendis' titles and I haven't been so happy in years. Bendis' Superman free is how I need to be.

[Yoda]

The difference is Tomasi and Jurgens would have slipped into the 30Ks by their 50th issues whereas Bendis' Superman titles is already in the 30Ks after 20 issues on each series. And this is from a month of comic sales prior to the virus pandemic which will have a further negative impact on sales. It's a pretty clear indication that the identity reveal storyline has not gone down well with the fans. A 4,000 unit drop in the space of a month can't be dismissed solely due to a natural drop in interest.

And that assumes issue number is the common denominator as opposed to time on the run, which actually is a about the same for both right now. Rebirth also had a line wide relaunch behind it, was coming off of a major status quo shift after 5 years of negativity surroudning the the character and generally throughout the entire line. That is not comparable to a new #1 and a creative team switch.

[Sam]

And that assumes issue number is the common denominator as opposed to time on the run, which actually is a about the same for both right now. Rebirth also had a line wide relaunch behind it, was coming off of a major status quo shift after 5 years of negativity surroudning the the character and generally throughout the entire line. That is not comparable to a new #1 and a creative team switch.

Oh, come on. DC promoted the heck out of Bendis taking over the title. BENDIS IS COMING was plastered all over the DC books, he was interviewed in major newspaper, and Didio hyped is arrival all over the con circuit. Plus, his run was coming out of the very successful Action Comics 1000. This wasn't just a creative team switch. It had the full force of DC's promotion behind it. I mean, that first Superman issue of Bendis sold well over 100,000 units, above the initial Tomasi issue. He had every opportunity to get readers on board. And he's lost them much faster.

As for your other point, even if you go by time, Tomasi would still be out ahead, but you can't dismiss it by issue. Two Superman issues a month means twice the profit. So Bendis is immediately deliver less bang for the buck by doing one a month.