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  1. #121
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post
    Maybe I'm being dense here, and someone can explain this to me in a way that I can understand.

    As a fan of the new52 Superman who does not like SuperDad or his son, how is it good for me when SuperDad/SuperJon comics sell well?
    You're right in that high sales will increase the odds of Superdad sticking around and lower the chances of Nuperman's return. At least in current day continuity.

    However, there's a few things to consider. There are factors other than just sales that go into their decision making process.

    Nuperman sold pretty damn well until 2015. You'd think, looking at the numbers, that DC would just course-correct and undo Truth and stick with Nuperman, right? After all, from 2011 to 2014 he outsold his predecessor.

    But its like this. If Superdad does well, that is going to tell DC there's a market out there for Superman. Obviously there is one and always has been. I know that. You know that. DC doesnt; they struggle with the character too much, but if sales are strong they're more likely to have a little more faith and that means they'll be willing to put more Super-related stuff on the market. If the New52 hadn't done as well as it did, it's unlikely we would have gotten American Alien or Coming of the Supermen, for example. So Superdad selling well increases the odds of us getting more stuff like that. It might not be Nuperman, but it will be out-of-continuity and might be more to our personal tastes.

    Final Days seems to have been well received as well and if this board is a accurate reflection of the community as a whole, then it brought in some people who hadn't been reading Superman, either the 52 version or any version at all. Nostalgia is a powerful thing and between that last story and Superdad talking about how great Nuperman was, people might start to miss him. That increased interest might lead to more collections of the 52 stuff, and possibly even original material. That might be a miniseries exploring Clark's rookie year in Metropolis as a t-shirt wearing social crusader. It might be Nuperman's return to the DCU proper alongside Superdad in a Red/Blue type situation. It might be t-shirt Superman spending time with the Legion in a new Legion title.

    Granted, none of this might come to pass and Nuperman, and versions like him, might be out of the picture for another twenty years. But when Superman does well, DC tends to jump on it and try a little experimentation and expansion. Out of the stuff they throw at the wall, odds are at least some of it will be to your liking.

    Superdad isn't really my cup of tea. And I wont read it if I dont think its quality (jury is definitely still out on that). But when Superman does well, DC tends to do more with him, they try to appeal to a wider demographic, and they experiment more. Some of the best Elseworlds came about because the monthly titles were doing decently and DC got brave.

    If nothing else, there's a huge backlog of Bronze Age stuff to read, and that's very Nuperman-ish.
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  2. #122
    Astonishing Member vasir12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ina heshima kwa Jumuia kama ka View Post
    Flash Rebirth #1 is benefiting from the TV show. It's the only last week release that's still in the top 5, outperforming new releases like Star Wars and Justice League.

    People that watch the TV shows and movies just need a jumping on point, and usually that's a new #1. You can try to make the comics more like other media, but if you're going to do it in like issue 34, you're not going to attract a lot of those fans.
    The fact that Flash Rebirth basically continues the rebirth story also helps

  3. #123
    Astonishing Member AlexanderLuthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post
    Maybe I'm being dense here, and someone can explain this to me in a way that I can understand.

    As a fan of the new52 Superman who does not like SuperDad or his son, how is it good for me when SuperDad/SuperJon comics sell well?


    Doesn't them selling well just increase the chances that they will both stay, and that the Superman I am a fan of will never return? It seems like poor sales would increase the chance of new52 Superman returning, a new reboot with a new Superman (Who may be closer to what I'd like than SuperDad), or some change to the status quo like Jon being written out of the series and SuperDad adding some of the memories and personality of new52 Superman in a story sense or just in terms of editorial changing the way he's approached while still being the guy who now know as SuperDad.

    Good sales would seem to increase the possibility that SuperDad and SuperJon both become fixtures and no changes are made.

    If Superman were in general some really small niche title like, I don't know, Howard the Duck or Nighthawk, the theory that good sales of the issues of the one book they are doing for a character at that level are good for all of that character's fans because the book might cancelled and not come back if it doesn't sell well, kind of holds water. Superman, though, is iconic enough that we know there is going to be a comic book about no matter what (I mean, not until the sun goes supernova in a billion years, but for the next 5-10 years at least, minimum). A sales dip would likely simply trigger exactly the kind of changes I want, or similar ones. Superman in general is not going away. At most, they might reduce him from shipping 6 issues a month (2 Action Comics 2 Superman 2 Justice League) to fewer numbers. But there's going to be at least one. The property is too valuable not to do at least one (Unless we are maybe talking brief temporary hiatus to relaunch with extra hype).

    I actually think it's critical that the Jon-centric stuff especially fail so that kid doesn't get incorporated into every potential future reboot, and into movies and TV shows, as a central part of the Superman myth, which is obviously what they are trying to do with him. His sales need to fail and it needs to be shown to be untenable for Superman to be worthwhile for me long-term.

    I'll admit, I'm not doing a strict boycott. I am not buying the Superman title right now. I did buy an issue of Action Comics and might stick with that issue by issue if the Jon stuff is kept to a minimum and we see a lot of action and a lot of the traditional cast. But it's down from subscribing to all the Superman stuff before, and I almost feel like maybe I should be boycotting. If I felt like my buying 1 issue or not buying 1 issue here or there would make a difference, I would be boycotting- it's just that I think these trends are larger than just me, so I am giving the stuff that seems like it might interest me a chance on a non-subscription basis issue by issue, and skipping the stuff like the Superman title that just obviously is not going to be something I'd like (At least for this first arc).
    Superman selling well is good for Superman fans. It makes the book more high profile possibly recruiting better creators, it leads to spin-offs and more books and it keeps Superman's rightful place right near the top of the DCU food chain. They have already decided to bring Nuperman back in some fashion, otherwise SuperDad would not be at his grave leaving strange handprints. If Superman continues to sell well there is room for both. However, you're correct that Jon will always be Superboy from now on, but I think that decision is largely unaffected by sales at this point

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    You're right in that high sales will increase the odds of Superdad sticking around and lower the chances of Nuperman's return. At least in current day continuity.

    However, there's a few things to consider. There are factors other than just sales that go into their decision making process.

    Nuperman sold pretty damn well until 2015. You'd think, looking at the numbers, that DC would just course-correct and undo Truth and stick with Nuperman, right? After all, from 2011 to 2014 he outsold his predecessor.

    But its like this. If Superdad does well, that is going to tell DC there's a market out there for Superman. Obviously there is one and always has been. I know that. You know that. DC doesnt; they struggle with the character too much, but if sales are strong they're more likely to have a little more faith and that means they'll be willing to put more Super-related stuff on the market. If the New52 hadn't done as well as it did, it's unlikely we would have gotten American Alien or Coming of the Supermen, for example. So Superdad selling well increases the odds of us getting more stuff like that. It might not be Nuperman, but it will be out-of-continuity and might be more to our personal tastes.

    Final Days seems to have been well received as well and if this board is a accurate reflection of the community as a whole, then it brought in some people who hadn't been reading Superman, either the 52 version or any version at all. Nostalgia is a powerful thing and between that last story and Superdad talking about how great Nuperman was, people might start to miss him. That increased interest might lead to more collections of the 52 stuff, and possibly even original material. That might be a miniseries exploring Clark's rookie year in Metropolis as a t-shirt wearing social crusader. It might be Nuperman's return to the DCU proper alongside Superdad in a Red/Blue type situation. It might be t-shirt Superman spending time with the Legion in a new Legion title.

    Granted, none of this might come to pass and Nuperman, and versions like him, might be out of the picture for another twenty years. But when Superman does well, DC tends to jump on it and try a little experimentation and expansion. Out of the stuff they throw at the wall, odds are at least some of it will be to your liking.

    Superdad isn't really my cup of tea. And I wont read it if I dont think its quality (jury is definitely still out on that). But when Superman does well, DC tends to do more with him, they try to appeal to a wider demographic, and they experiment more. Some of the best Elseworlds came about because the monthly titles were doing decently and DC got brave.

    If nothing else, there's a huge backlog of Bronze Age stuff to read, and that's very Nuperman-ish.
    Even if the reason is sales, it won't make nuperman come back. the reason he was sacked is because of low sales and bad rep on fans.
    I don't even see nostalgia, he died and it was zero news. Only characters talking about him won't make people want him back

  5. #125
    Astonishing Member AlexanderLuthor's Avatar
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    If DC had a smart marketing crew they would give away a free code for Flash Rebirth and GA Rebirth on Comixology at the end of the season premieres of Flash and Arrow this year and a code for Supergirl and Superman Rebirth and the end of the Supergirl premiere. If the audiences are 2 million plus, even if you get 1/1000 to try it you are onto something
    Last edited by AlexanderLuthor; 06-18-2016 at 11:00 AM.

  6. #126
    Incredible Member suemorphplus209's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexanderLuthor View Post
    Superman selling well is good for Superman fans. It makes the book more high profile possibly recruiting better creators, it leads to spin-offs and more books and it keeps Superman's rightful place right near the top of the DCU food chain. They have already decided to bring Nuperman back in some fashion, otherwise SuperDad would not be at his grave leaving strange handprints. If Superman continues to sell well there is room for both. However, you're correct that Jon will always be Superboy from now on, but I think that decision is largely unaffected by sales at this point
    I think that this is likely more or less the direction, and it's interesting, because if true, wouldn't that make Nuperman like the "Nightwing" of the Superman titles?

  7. #127
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    Day #2 for Superman #1

    Remains at number 3.

    Minimum sales at 2002.

    Day 9 for Action Comic s #957

    Drops to number 22. Minimum sales at 8972.

    Day 16 for Superman Rebirth #1

    Superman Rebirth #1 drops to number 25.

    Minimum sales at 15906.

    Some observations:

    Superman Rebirth #1 is doing a lot better than Action Comics #957. The Superman book usually does better than Action anyway and it's a new #1 so for now that explains why Superman is doing better than it usually does compared to Action Comics, having smaller drops.

    Flash Rebirth #1 has dropped since yesterday, but it's still doing very well for a last week release.

    DC Rebirth #1 is still on the first page. I've never seen a comic perform this well digitally.

  8. #128
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayswift View Post
    Even if the reason is sales, it won't make nuperman come back. the reason he was sacked is because of low sales and bad rep on fans.
    I don't even see nostalgia, he died and it was zero news. Only characters talking about him won't make people want him back
    Of course Nuperman's death generated no attention, he had a replacement already waiting in the wings and everyone knew Superdad would be taking over the role before we were even sure if Nuperman was actually going to die or just be sidelined. The story wasn't "Superman dies again!" it was "Superdad is taking over again!"

    I dont know what DC's plan is. I haven't jumped on the "Nuperman WILL Return" boat like some people here have; I'd assume that DC wants to build up Superdad without any competition, in the same way they got rid of Wally when Barry came back. The stuff they're doing right now, teasing his possible return, might just be to keep Nuperman fans strung along and reading. I wouldn't put it past them and if I had to bet on it, that's where I'd lay my cash down. But I dont know what their plan is. None of us do, far as I know.

    But this is besides the point. Point is, when Superman does well, its good for his fans. It means more material, more Elseworlds, more collected editions of older material. It means more experimentation, more risks taken, and more imaginative stories. It might even mean more stuff in other media like cartoons and movies, and maybe, just maybe, more respect from DC itself. That last bit is unlikely, but one can hope.

    Honestly, I dont care if Nuperman returns. I want quality Superman stories with a version of Superman that I actually recognize as Superman. This entire thing has been poorly executed, its been insulting to fans and creators, and its dropped tons of potential and development and subplots. Its made me drop 75% of my DC pull and what is left is hanging on a issue-by-issue basis. Its made me lose what little faith in DC I had left.

    But if the stories we get out of this are quality and Superdad acts like Superman instead of some yuppie (Stern) hick (Loeb) who just looks like Superman, Im there, and I will happily give DC my money. If not? Wouldn't be the first time I dropped the character and started digging through the trades; I still have a bunch of Bronze Age stuff left to find, after all.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

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  9. #129
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Of course Nuperman's death generated no attention, he had a replacement already waiting in the wings and everyone knew Superdad would be taking over the role before we were even sure if Nuperman was actually going to die or just be sidelined. The story wasn't "Superman dies again!" it was "Superdad is taking over again!"

    I dont know what DC's plan is. I haven't jumped on the "Nuperman WILL Return" boat like some people here have; I'd assume that DC wants to build up Superdad without any competition, in the same way they got rid of Wally when Barry came back. The stuff they're doing right now, teasing his possible return, might just be to keep Nuperman fans strung along and reading. I wouldn't put it past them and if I had to bet on it, that's where I'd lay my cash down. But I dont know what their plan is. None of us do, far as I know.

    But this is besides the point. Point is, when Superman does well, its good for his fans. It means more material, more Elseworlds, more collected editions of older material. It means more experimentation, more risks taken, and more imaginative stories. It might even mean more stuff in other media like cartoons and movies, and maybe, just maybe, more respect from DC itself. That last bit is unlikely, but one can hope.

    Honestly, I dont care if Nuperman returns. I want quality Superman stories with a version of Superman that I actually recognize as Superman. This entire thing has been poorly executed, its been insulting to fans and creators, and its dropped tons of potential and development and subplots. Its made me drop 75% of my DC pull and what is left is hanging on a issue-by-issue basis. Its made me lose what little faith in DC I had left.

    But if the stories we get out of this are quality and Superdad acts like Superman instead of some yuppie (Stern) hick (Loeb) who just looks like Superman, Im there, and I will happily give DC my money. If not? Wouldn't be the first time I dropped the character and started digging through the trades; I still have a bunch of Bronze Age stuff left to find, after all.
    I agree with you mostly, although I wouldn't peg Sterns Superman as a yuppie. That was more Byrne's deal when he was writing him. Early on that may have been the case as they were transitioning the character from how Byrne did things to how the triangle guys would do things,but I always , at least Pre-Death, always got a George Reeve vibe from his Supes/Clark. No-nonsence as Superman and trading barbs with Lois and Bill Henderson.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  10. #130
    Astonishing Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ina heshima kwa Jumuia kama ka View Post
    Day #2 for Superman #1


    DC Rebirth #1 is still on the first page. I've never seen a comic perform this well digitally.
    I remember Justice League 1 doing big numbers, is it doing even better than that?

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    I remember Justice League 1 doing big numbers, is it doing even better than that?
    I wasn't keeping track of digital sales back then, but I would think so. The digital market has gotten a lot bigger since 2011.

    It's performing better than Secret Wars #1, which broke digital records for Marvel.

  12. #132
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    Day 3 for Superman #1

    Remains at number 3.

    Minimum sales at 3003.

    Day 10 for Action Comics #957

    Drops to number 24. Minimum sales at 9952.

    Day 17 for Superman Rebirth #1

    Superman Rebirth #1 drops to number 29.

    Minimum sales at 16881.

  13. #133
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    Day 4 for Superman #1

    Remains at number 3.

    Minimum sales at 4004.

    Day 11 for Action Comics #957

    Drops to number 29. Minimum sales at 10926.

    Day 18 for Superman Rebirth #1

    Superman Rebirth #1 drops to number 30.

    Minimum sales at 17854.

  14. #134
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    The real test is to see how sales are in August or September. There will undoubtedly be a drop off by then but if Superman titles are still charting in the top 10 digitally and top 25 in print in the fall,it will be good news.

    There is an undercurrent of excitement in the larger Superman fandom beyond this site. I may not like how we got here, but I'm so far, glad that we are.
    Last edited by manofsteel1979; 06-20-2016 at 04:51 PM.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  15. #135
    Incredible Member SuperCrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    You're right in that high sales will increase the odds of Superdad sticking around and lower the chances of Nuperman's return. At least in current day continuity.
    And that's primarily what I care about. I want an ongoing new52 Superman book to subscribe to. Preferably he would be the only Superman. Second choice, one of two Supermen. Third choice, same guy with the same memories but a new somewhat similar secret identity.

    I also dislike the Jon character and want him to go away and not be cemented as an important part of the Superman mythos.

    When I look at all those things, I think all the things I want are less likely the better SuperDad sells, except for possibly the idea of new52 Superman returning as a non-Superman character, but even that being helped by high SuperDad sales are speculative. Sure, they'll do more spin-offs if SuperDad sales well, but it might be a Superboy book with Jon adding to SuperSons and Jon being in the main books. Maybe it's a third major SuperDad title. Maybe it's a second title for some of their other spin-offs. Maybe Steel gets a book again. A spin-off of a hypothetically successful SuperDad is more likely to be in the vein of the stuff I don't like than the stuff I do.

    Obviously, I would consider buying a limited special series that has an alternate Superman who I like better than SuperDad, but that's not really my end "goal". I want a monthly about new52 Superman in some form to subscribe to- or a similar childless Superman, possibly with a more adult audience in mind and a higher age rating. For the most part, I see getting the ongoing monthly I want as more likely if SuperDad fails than if he succeeds. There are scenarios both ways, but my mental projections tell me the odds are best of getting what I want if SuperDad and SuperJon sales fail.

    Granted, that didn't stop me from buying the first new issue of Action Comics. But I haven't bought any of the other SuperDad starring titles since the announcement. And AC hangs by a thread with me. Might consider JL Rebirth, but again I am not sure, and if I did, it might be hanging by a thread, too.

    I think in the end it's very likely that I'm essentially at the end of buying Superman titles. I told Dan Jurgens on Twitter I'd give AC a shot, and I'm doing that issue to issue. But I'm off Superman. And I think easily within a month or two, I'll be buying nothing, or maybe Justice League as a token title.

    To me, Superman is dead. I mean, my Superman is literally dead in the storyline. But, also, I don't like the new guy, I don't like his sidekick- so my interest is dying too. At some point I may just be out permanently on all the titles (And would probably stop checking the forum soon after so as not to annoy people).

    They've kind of got a limited amount of time to rehook me at least partially.

    If their goal was to keep people like me on board, it would have been smart to have at least one monthly new52 Superman book. That way, we keep a subscription and they get some money, and maybe we buy the occasional storylines from the other Superman that look neat. Plus, if he returns more broadly, I'm sure they'd put an ad for that in the back of a hypothetical new52 Superman ongoing. But if I'm totally out of it at any point, I'll probably wind up totally out of it for a long time.

    If at least one title doesn't hook me enough to subscribe by the end of the summer and there's no word of new52 Superman's return, I may not even know when he comes back. They wait a year or two, and there's a good chance I'm long gone. I'm not the type to hang on too long to the message forums and news sites. I feel like I still have a place here because I am rereading the new52 Superman comics I have and posting some highlights, and am current with Action Comics despite not subscribing. But if I wind up stopping buying AC and still am off SM and the spin-offs, and I either don't buy or buy and don't like Rebirth JL and then stop buying it, I won't be here for new52 Superman to come back (All indications are that he won't. If they lying or being misleading and I wind up believing them and not checking back- their fault, not mine. If they said check back in October, I probably would. But they aren't saying that.). They'll have to hope people like me hear about new52 Superman's return randomly somehow.

    I literally now am subscribing to 3 Marvel and 1 Image book. All three Marvel books I subscribe to are not selling well and may be cancelled by the publisher. That may leave my only connection to the comics world that's current as the Image title, Black Science, if Squadron Supreme, Howard the Duck, and Nighthawk are cancelled. Heck, while I like the 00s Nighthawk character JMS (re)created and this is a version of, the first issue was somewhat questionable- less violent, annoying sidekick- I could drop that if it doesn't get better, even if it isn't cancelled. I am happy with Squadron Supreme and Howard the Duck, but Marvel may cancel them. I have very little interest in the higher profile Marvel titles (I don't really like their "house style" with the "witty" superhero banter that I don't find witty- Howard the Duck being the exception. ).

    So if I'm subscribed to one non-DC book and stop checking news and forums, basically new52 Superman's return is going to need to be on Comixology's front page or make the real news, and I'm going to need to notice instead of clicking past it- unless DC holds me somehow and gets me to latch on to *something* between now and this hypothetical return. I can tell you right now, the Superman title from Jon's point of view will not hold me. I won't even buy a single issue of that.

    I bought the first issue of Action Comics to "give it a chance" and it was okay-ish, and the solicits look reasonably okay to good for upcoming issues relative to the Superman title, less Jon, more the characters and settings and type of storylines I like, so we'll see.
    Last edited by SuperCrab; 06-20-2016 at 05:21 PM.

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