Avengers Worst Character Assassination, The Sequel

[Mark]

Hmm interesting didn't know the second or third memory wipe was that bad. Still I like this Carol so far reminds me of the EMH version.

Sort of yea, that show was canceled before it's time and I'd forgotten it. I've often felt sorry for the character, Carol's mind has been walked on ever since the first issue of Ms. Marvel and Rogue's attempted murder did wonders for Rogue and left Carol in the dust. Like all characters she's powerless against bad writing.

[Rochedalaix]

KSD's latest run in space with Carol is pretty good, even someone who doesn't like the character that much anymore (like me) has to say that. She's giving it her all and it shows. Trouble was the first story arc she did was... Well I didn't like it starting with the art. But before that it was like marvel embarked on an alienation campaign, they almost seemed determined to drive the old fans away and get new fans to replace them, not holding onto both. Pre-Cw Carol was going to be marvel's version of Wonder Woman, she had the black costume and had retaken the Ms. Marvel name and everything was great. They were completely satisfied with everything.
Then something happened and in interviews they said that Carol's Ms. Marvel name was wrong and out dated, her costume was horrible (Hooker boots I think was how KDS phrased it), her hair had to be changed. The whole attitude in my opinion was that the fans of the old Ms. Marvel just didn't realize how bad it all used to be.
The Carol Danvers KSD is writing now has the same name, same blond hair and roughly the same attitude but the Carol Danvers I liked was killed off by Claremont to give Rogue A-list status and the Carol Danvers I was starting to like again was decimated by her fascist actions in cw and killed completely when KSD decided to take out her memory. It's not a bad book, not a bad character but KSD is in my opinion writing a brand new character who she's just tagged with a legacy. Sort of like a new hockey player wearing the jersey number of the great hockey player who got traded the year before. Currently the only version of Ms. Marvel that I still like goes on the reruns of Superhero Squad on the hub and the current one KSD is writing is more a combination of Han Solo and Flash Gordon. Not bad, but I don't find her as enjoyable. It is worth a look though.

The Carol I was starting to like was ruined when she joined the Avengers again, back in 98. They got rid of her Binary powers, and than made her a alcoholic, I was not okay with that. I would have rather she stayed with the Starjammers and only appeared during events than for her to be vilified for the next 25 years.

[Rochedalaix]

KSD's latest run in space with Carol is pretty good, even someone who doesn't like the character that much anymore (like me) has to say that. She's giving it her all and it shows. Trouble was the first story arc she did was... Well I didn't like it starting with the art. But before that it was like marvel embarked on an alienation campaign, they almost seemed determined to drive the old fans away and get new fans to replace them, not holding onto both. Pre-Cw Carol was going to be marvel's version of Wonder Woman, she had the black costume and had retaken the Ms. Marvel name and everything was great. They were completely satisfied with everything.
Then something happened and in interviews they said that Carol's Ms. Marvel name was wrong and out dated, her costume was horrible (Hooker boots I think was how KDS phrased it), her hair had to be changed. The whole attitude in my opinion was that the fans of the old Ms. Marvel just didn't realize how bad it all used to be.
The Carol Danvers KSD is writing now has the same name, same blond hair and roughly the same attitude but the Carol Danvers I liked was killed off by Claremont to give Rogue A-list status and the Carol Danvers I was starting to like again was decimated by her fascist actions in cw and killed completely when KSD decided to take out her memory. It's not a bad book, not a bad character but KSD is in my opinion writing a brand new character who she's just tagged with a legacy. Sort of like a new hockey player wearing the jersey number of the great hockey player who got traded the year before. Currently the only version of Ms. Marvel that I still like goes on the reruns of Superhero Squad on the hub and the current one KSD is writing is more a combination of Han Solo and Flash Gordon. Not bad, but I don't find her as enjoyable. It is worth a look though.

The Carol I was starting to like was ruined when she joined the Avengers again, back in 98. They got rid of her Binary powers, and than made her a alcoholic, I was not okay with that. I would have rather she stayed with the Starjammers and only appeared during events than for her to be vilified for the next 15 years.

[Mark]

The Carol I was starting to like was ruined when she joined the Avengers again, back in 98. They got rid of her Binary powers, and than made her a alcoholic, I was not okay with that. I would have rather she stayed with the Starjammers and only appeared during events than for her to be vilified for the next 25 years.

Yea, the alcoholism really seemed forced.

[From The Shadows]

Both Cyclops and Cap were asses in AvX, lets be honest.

Now the worst character assassination I'd have to chose the most recent is Bishop. The guy started out a 90s cliche which I could take or leave but since AoA he was slowly feshed out into a complex character. Marvel just trashed that beyond repair, they left almost nothing redeemable and he was the only black X-Man to boot. Real poor form.

I'd add Vision, Scarlet Witch in here too and Wolverine has been closed to destroyed for me Im surprised he hasn't been mentioned more. I dont know if its if a characters misdeeds keeps the character unusable or unprofitable that its considered character assassination. But him being aprt of an internment camp, slaughtering native Americas, Nazi spy, trying to kill Hope, Wiccan, Hulking and Teen Scott as well as slapping around Jubilee when she became a Vampire and no he wasnt just fighting a crazed Jubilee she came to him for help and was non-threatening. And it got worse and worse in part to further Cyclops character. I cant muster much heart for him even as he is close to death, but just mourn what he once was.

Hank and Professor Xavier were horribly assassinated to make Cyclops look good and I resent it highly. Reed, Iron Man, Doc Strange and Cap are coming close by acting like fascist douchenozzles. Scott is dead to me and I think what happened to Cap Britain TWICE is awful and this is coming from a huge Nightcrawler fan, I didn't no much about Cap outside a few team-ups and issues of New Mutants before Excalibur and even I felt like something was fishy. It actually didn't make me hate Brian, though, despite his clashes with Nightcrawler and some mistreatment of Meggan. As an NC fan who knows what its like for a character to be propped up at the expense of their fave you have all my feels CB fans.

I think Hank Pym has been trashed enough, end mentioned enough it seems.

I would also mention I think Black Panther had elements of being character assassinated but not quite yet.

[Lando Calrissian]

Both Cyclops and Cap were asses in AvX, lets be honest.

Now the worst character assassination I'd have to chose the most recent is Bishop. The guy started out a 90s cliche which I could take or leave but since AoA he was slowly feshed out into a complex character. Marvel just trashed that beyond repair, they left almost nothing redeemable and he was the only black X-Man to boot. Real poor form.

I'd add Vision, Scarlet Witch in here too and Wolverine has been closed to destroyed for me Im surprised he hasn't been mentioned more. I dont know if its if a characters misdeeds keeps the character unusable or unprofitable that its considered character assassination. But him being aprt of an internment camp, slaughtering native Americas, Nazi spy, trying to kill Hope, Wiccan, Hulking and Teen Scott as well as slapping around Jubilee when she became a Vampire and no he wasnt just fighting a crazed Jubilee she came to him for help and was non-threatening. And it got worse and worse in part to further Cyclops character. I cant muster much heart for him even as he is close to death, but just mourn what he once was.

Hank and Professor Xavier were horribly assassinated to make Cyclops look good and I resent it highly. Reed, Iron Man, Doc Strange and Cap are coming close by acting like fascist douchenozzles. Scott is dead to me and I think what happened to Cap Britain TWICE is awful and this is coming from a huge Nightcrawler fan, I didn't no much about Cap outside a few team-ups and issues of New Mutants before Excalibur and even I felt like something was fishy. It actually didn't make me hate Brian, though, despite his clashes with Nightcrawler and some mistreatment of Meggan. As an NC fan who knows what its like for a character to be propped up at the expense of their fave you have all my feels CB fans.

I think Hank Pym has been trashed enough, end mentioned enough it seems.

I would also mention I think Black Panther had elements of being character assassinated but not quite yet.

When I was a kid reading X-Men I loved Bishop, heck, who didn't? The guy was a complete powerhouse, had a cool back story that got better with time and was one of the most powerful of the X-men.

I also went nuts when he showed up in the classic X-Men cartoon.


Also Hank Pym... Love the character, he needs to be a much MUCH bigger player in the MU. I still don't understand why he doesn't have a seat right next to legends like Cap, Thor, Tony and Clint. IMO, he should be playing a huge part on Avengers and he isn't. His different power "sets" are great," but his big brain is his real weapon. He fits a cool niche on the team. I miss Pym not being around more often.

I loved him on Slotts Mighty Avengers back in 2013.

[Mark]

Interesting trend, I think a lot of assassinations happen to make other characters look good.

Both Cyclops and Cap were asses in AvX, lets be honest.

Now the worst character assassination I'd have to chose the most recent is Bishop. The guy started out a 90s cliche which I could take or leave but since AoA he was slowly feshed out into a complex character. Marvel just trashed that beyond repair, they left almost nothing redeemable and he was the only black X-Man to boot. Real poor form.

I'd add Vision, Scarlet Witch in here too and Wolverine has been closed to destroyed for me Im surprised he hasn't been mentioned more. I dont know if its if a characters misdeeds keeps the character unusable or unprofitable that its considered character assassination. But him being aprt of an internment camp, slaughtering native Americas, Nazi spy, trying to kill Hope, Wiccan, Hulking and Teen Scott as well as slapping around Jubilee when she became a Vampire and no he wasnt just fighting a crazed Jubilee she came to him for help and was non-threatening. And it got worse and worse in part to further Cyclops character. I cant muster much heart for him even as he is close to death, but just mourn what he once was.

Hank and Professor Xavier were horribly assassinated to make Cyclops look good and I resent it highly. Reed, Iron Man, Doc Strange and Cap are coming close by acting like fascist douchenozzles. Scott is dead to me and I think what happened to Cap Britain TWICE is awful and this is coming from a huge Nightcrawler fan, I didn't no much about Cap outside a few team-ups and issues of New Mutants before Excalibur and even I felt like something was fishy. It actually didn't make me hate Brian, though, despite his clashes with Nightcrawler and some mistreatment of Meggan. As an NC fan who knows what its like for a character to be propped up at the expense of their fave you have all my feels CB fans.

I think Hank Pym has been trashed enough, end mentioned enough it seems.

I would also mention I think Black Panther had elements of being character assassinated but not quite yet.

[Nomads1]

Now the worst character assassination I'd have to chose the most recent is Bishop. The guy started out a 90s cliche which I could take or leave but since AoA he was slowly feshed out into a complex character. Marvel just trashed that beyond repair, they left almost nothing redeemable and he was the only black X-Man to boot. Real poor form.

I didn't like Bishop very much when he started. Too much a victim of his times for my tastes, with his guns, long hair and bad attitude. However, I loved how Claremont fleshed him out in X-Treme X-Men, giving emphazis to his cop background, and effectively making him the muscle of the team (metabolizing the absorbed energy into strength, much like Sunspot did with solar radiation). When Alan Davis shaved his head, he also made Bishop visually perfect for me. Then came the vilification.... Honestly, I'd rather they'd made Cable the bad guy there instead of Bishop.

Peace

[The Sword is Drawn]

I'm afraid I disagree with you on Claremont's intentions. I think he quite deliberately sacrificed CB (and Meggan, to my mind) to give Kitty and Nightcrawler a boost. He was very much in love with Kitty and I really don't think he considered that CB had fans that might not appreciate what he was doing in Excalibur (I think the rather cool feedback from fans at the UK conventions came as something of a shock to him, or at least that was my impression at the time). It's notable that Davis created the "Blunderer Jinx" as an explanation as to why Brian had been acting like a total buffoon.

Claremont's surprise is part of the reason which I don't believe it was an intentional drubbing down of the character, though. When you read Claremont's words in the intro to the 'Before Excalibur...' trade there is clear interest in the character and a fascination for the world that Moore and Delano had created. For the most part he also pretty respectfully used Cap's supporting cast and Otherworld concepts.

It's just Brian himself who doesn't fair so well. Oddly.

It should be pointed out also that Claremont began by approaching Marvel with an attempt at a Captain Britain series. It became Excalibur because Marvel weren't interested in a British character headlining a book. Admittedly the early Excalibur pitches were a little different. Longshot and Colossus would have been part of the team. Meggan wasn't part of that either, I believe because there was an intention to pair Brian off with Kitty Pryde. But I don't think you can really fault Claremont's interest in the character, and I do not believe there was any intentional attempt to damage the character. That was an unfortunate side effect, if anything. And yeah, like you say, Alan Davis did a lot to readdress the balance later.

It's kind of bizarre, because across the years Chris Claremont has probably been more responsible for keeping Brian Braddock in readers' memories more than any other writer at Marvel. But it's not always in the most positive way. Because regardless of what other writers do to progress the character if Claremont has a chance to use him he drags the character back to the way he wrote him in the past.

New Excalibur, for example. Brian had appeared in Avengers since they had made him Omniversal Guardian. He had replaced Roma, he was now the guy overseeing Marvel's multiverse.

But then we have House of M, Claremont picks up the character, and it's one big continuity clunker leading into New Excalibur which has never been explained away. he basically ignored the changes made to the character in order to write him as he wanted to again. And that's my broader complaint. It's not as brutal as the damage done to the character by Rick Remender, but it's far from blameless.

[VJ.]

KSD's latest run in space with Carol is pretty good, even someone who doesn't like the character that much anymore (like me) has to say that. She's giving it her all and it shows. Trouble was the first story arc she did was... Well I didn't like it starting with the art. But before that it was like marvel embarked on an alienation campaign, they almost seemed determined to drive the old fans away and get new fans to replace them, not holding onto both. Pre-Cw Carol was going to be marvel's version of Wonder Woman, she had the black costume and had retaken the Ms. Marvel name and everything was great. They were completely satisfied with everything.
Then something happened and in interviews they said that Carol's Ms. Marvel name was wrong and out dated, her costume was horrible (Hooker boots I think was how KDS phrased it), her hair had to be changed. The whole attitude in my opinion was that the fans of the old Ms. Marvel just didn't realize how bad it all used to be.

I liked the first arc; I think KSD's first volume was a solid one - I agree the art was patchy in places, but the story was a solid one. And on the costume, I hadn't heard the phrase "Hooker boots" from anyone at Marvel before, but that's almost exactly what I called them when I first saw her old costume. As an Air Force colonel, the new costume makes far more sense than the old, it's more convincing and military looking. It just works better in every way, giving her a sense of authority that the old one didn't.

The Carol Danvers KSD is writing now has the same name, same blond hair and roughly the same attitude but the Carol Danvers I liked was killed off by Claremont to give Rogue A-list status and the Carol Danvers I was starting to like again was decimated by her fascist actions in cw and killed completely when KSD decided to take out her memory. It's not a bad book, not a bad character but KSD is in my opinion writing a brand new character who she's just tagged with a legacy. Sort of like a new hockey player wearing the jersey number of the great hockey player who got traded the year before.

Just because you don't like the way a character is currently written doesn't make them a new legacy character. I'm afraid both Claremont & KSD's Carol Danvers is the same one you read about; if you don't like the way she's been developed, that's your prerogative. I like the fact she actually gets character development and changes. It makes her far more three dimensional than many other characters who are stuck in a perpetual status quo.

[Mark]

That art was more than patchy and when I first read Carol back in the 1970's she had no trouble establishing authority be it against the Vision or the Supreme Intelligence. Unlike the Carol I read during her time as the leader of the Avengers when she was Tony's puppet or the hypocrite she bacame from cw to dark reign. I guess I should have included 'in my opinion' about the legacy character but I thought that was implied.
To me the current Carol after having her brain scrambled multiple times by multiple foes over the years is not the one I read when I first picked up the character. Not even close. She has a different name, different costume, different personality... Might as well tell me the that current Dr. Who is the same one I started to watch way back when.

As I said KSD has a good title and I'm sure this current character named Carol Danvers appeals to many people, but not that much to me and I'm sure that I'm not the type of fan KSD wanted anyway. I think she wanted the type of fan who thought Carol's old costume was silly, her old name was outdated and I think that's what she's getting right now. I hope she's happy with it.

I liked the first arc; I think KSD's first volume was a solid one - I agree the art was patchy in places, but the story was a solid one. And on the costume, I hadn't heard the phrase "Hooker boots" from anyone at Marvel before, but that's almost exactly what I called them when I first saw her old costume. As an Air Force colonel, the new costume makes far more sense than the old, it's more convincing and military looking. It just works better in every way, giving her a sense of authority that the old one didn't.
Just because you don't like the way a character is currently written doesn't make them a new legacy character. I'm afraid both Claremont & KSD's Carol Danvers is the same one you read about; if you don't like the way she's been developed, that's your prerogative. I like the fact she actually gets character development and changes. It makes her far more three dimensional than many other characters who are stuck in a perpetual status quo.

[Nomads1]

Just posted something about this in the Controversial Opinions thread, but I guess I'm so dumbfouned that I think a comment has a place here too.
Appearenty, according to some, Falcon has also been character assassinated in Captain America (which, I admit I'm not following), by having drunken sex with a minor, Jet Black, who it seems is not a minor for having grown in a different dimension where time flows differently. I guess that is what we get for trying to apply real world rules for wild fantasy fiction.

Peace