Action Comics, #957

[Last Son]

I think with the Cyborg I think they did a partial retcon around the time for Henshaws Post-Infinite Crisis return during Sinestro War which had Henshaw just steal Supes rocket which happened to have his DNA coding in it's memory banks due to the life support systems,but my memory is fuzzy on that as I don't feel like digging for the issue.

Yeah, and even without that, there are a million possible ways the creation of Cyborg Superman could be explained with some other piece of Kryptonian technology in the fortress. Maybe there's some Kryptonian cloning machine locked away in a back room.

It's like with the Eradicator. Even without the Byrne-style Krypton, the Eradicator as it was originally intended could still exist as a device that an ancestor of Superman's attempted to use but was thwarted, and so Kryptonian society never developed into a sterile, xenophobic, birthing matrix-using world.

[Sacred Knight]

I think this is still technically the character Pre-Flashpoint,meaning the Krypton he's from is the Donner-esque version from post 2005,but in terms of characterization and solid history,he's written much like the Superman as he was circa SUPERMAN #150, Jurgens last issue prior to the turn of the century revamp that had Jeph Loeb and Joe Kelly skew things in a different direction.

So, in terms of continuity for this particular Superman, everything from MOS #1 to SUPERMAN #150 is canon to this guy, with everything after on a case by case basis, with the Donner Krypton look and tech replacing the Byrne version of said tech. That's likely the simplest way to look at it.

That's a good way to look at it. If that's actually truly applicable in any narrative form, it would certainly wipe out the worst years of post-Crisis Superman's history.

[DIVINITY]

I hate how Lex gets the best Steel costume we've seen in years.

I know right, lol. To add insult to injury, I have to pickup Superwoman, where they're telling the Jane Foster story, but with Lois, because it looks like that's the only Super-book that will feature John Henry Irons.

[sram15]

Lex's part was the only interesting part about this preview. Cool to see Jimmy again I guess. The rest was boring.

Actual issue might be different but I doubt it.

[Fuzzy Barbarian]

Just lightly going over this again, it seems like Lex may have hired the goons but not told them how hard he was going to ebat them. Maybe as a way to warn them against saying anything? Either way, I think having Lex as a "hero" makes a comic infinitely more interesting, e.g. Geoff Johns' Justice League.

They broke up a while ago. I think at least two years ago, if my memory is good.

Ah, thanks guys. I haven't read any post-Williams Batwoman. Guess it does leave the path open for Renee or a new love interest, so yay

But last I checked, was Maggie commissioner of the GCPD, right? I'm guessing being head of the SCU is a downgrade? Oh well, glad Metropolis has at least one named cop back. It'd be nice if she dropped a reference to Batwoman at some point.

[Patrick Gerard]

Not sure if it was zero hour.... all I remember was Kenny Braverman LOL
I just remember Loeb's issue 166 that started to return the older Pre-COIE Krypton back into continuity.

Everything I've heard was that was the plan and was approved by editorial. But they backtracked on because DiDio favored Birthright, which is why Johns and Kelly did Return to Krypton 2 where the Byrne Krypton was re-established and Steven T. Seagle was assigned the business of making the Birthright retcon happen.

As near as I can piece together: Birthright was basically Mark Waid's treatment for a Superman movie (and you may notice that Man of Steel borrowed a lot from it). It was meant to be something like six issues. He was asked to extend it out. And I think its relationship to continuity was always meant to be more like the Carlos Meglia special (Infinite City?) and the later All-Star and Earth-1 books. But DiDio's job was to make the comics more "movie ready" and he pushed to have that become the origin.

They had to ditch the Peter David Supergirl because it was unadaptable. Cir-El was floated as an idea that was simpler to convey but didn't get fan support so they wrote her out. Loeb pitched Kara's return but since continuity was up in the air, he couldn't establish anything about Krypton so he had her land naked (not tied to any version of Krypton that way, pitched as "Terminator meets Splash") and amnesiac (again, so the version of Krypton she came from would never be an issue).

Johns pitched Donner-esque Krypton as more movie friendly but they gave Jor-El a beard because it heightened the God analogies, made him look less like Superman himself, and didn't look anything like Marlon Brando (whose appearance they didn't have the rights to) while having white hair.

By and large, this stuff has all been adapted to what comics folks thought you could pitch a movie exec on at the time. Pre-52 Superman is back right now because he's perceived as being closer to something halfway between Snyder's take and what you see on merchandise. The costume itself kind of echoes the Super Friends kids toys. Jon is there because it's a pet concept of Jurgens that I think DC sees as viable to spin off into animation because of the success of Damian there, who also came back in spite of being killed likely because he's popular in the cartoons.

It isn't just that the comics are supposed to resemble the cartoons and movies to bring in people who watch those into the comics (although that's a big plus if it happens) but that the comics are supposed to basically be a test market for animated movies and live action shows, where they can try out and focus group ideas that might have big potential as new merch or cartoons.

Nobody aside from creators make all that much off a book that sells 50k copies. Image creators might, sure, but you're dealing with lower overhead there, often books without editorial staffs and smaller marketing departments, which leaves more money for creators. So the reason why this stuff feels chaotic is, in some measure, because they're trial ballooning things for movies and toys... and they're doing that so WB keeps pumping money into publishing because that's how WB justifies taking losses and break evens on some of DC's publishing. It's being treated as an R&D farm for new movie and cartoon adaptations. And so DC probably has to point to some new revamp of Superman that can support a TV show or movie or toyline every few years to keep WB happy but they try to present all these different takes as one evolving universe full of retcons so that readers, hopefully, treat all these versions as the same universe, which is what keeps comic shop readers invested enough to act as focus group audiences.

That's how I see it anyway. Marvel's not THAT different although the TV and movie studios being separate and not having full rights to movie versions of Hulk, Spider-man, FF, or X-Men buys some Marvel creators a bit more freedom while the folks writing Avengers and stuff are trying to write what they hope will be a movie in ten years. Well, then you have guys like Matt Fraction or Dan Slott who just write primarily for a comics audience. And I think it's interesting to note that Marvel's sales successes are often the least adaptation-friendly stuff they produce. And then the stuff that gets adapted is often not a great seller but generates positive critical response.

It's the great problem facing comics as I see it. Their financial value to their owners lies in their ability to generate adaptation friendly IP. But that stuff often sells poorly to comic shop readers, who really go out of their way to buy stuff that is poorly suited to being adapted. Batman is a special snowflake though because people love Batman comics and people love Batman movies and people don't expect one to be very much like the other. Because Batman adaptations are so successful, the comics don't have to really do any R&D for spinoffs aside from introducing more characters. Whereas I think the thinking with Superman comics has been "please, give us something we can make a movie out of." And it's only now that we have a movie and it resembles the Jurgens Superman in some ways that we're getting back to the Jurgens Superman with the mission statement of "Please, give us something we can make a Man of Steel sequel or tie-in to the Damian Wayne animated films out of". Since I think the Cavill Superman will be around a few movies (yeah, I know how BVS ends) then WB might be interested in possible directions you could take that character in sequels ten years from now or at least animated spinoffs.

Could be wrong. That's how it looks to me.

[The Shredder]

To Patrick's post;



Bravo.

[Myskin]

Good points, Patrick, but I have some objections:

As near as I can piece together: Birthright was basically Mark Waid's treatment for a Superman movie (and you may notice that Man of Steel borrowed a lot from it). It was meant to be something like six issues. He was asked to extend it out. And I think its relationship to continuity was always meant to be more like the Carlos Meglia special (Infinite City?) and the later All-Star and Earth-1 books. But DiDio's job was to make the comics more "movie ready" and he pushed to have that become the origin.

As far as I remember, Birthright was not a possible treatment for a Superman movie (and by the way, I don't think that MOS has anything to do with it except for one single scene - the main inspiration for MOS has been Superman: Earth One as far as I remember), but rather DC's attempt at making a "Ultimate Superman" series in the same vein of Ultimate Marvel. It was implemented in continuity as they went forward, and it was changed from the initial outline (which included Brainiac, too) to the one we all know.

Loeb pitched Kara's return but since continuity was up in the air, he couldn't establish anything about Krypton so he had her land naked (not tied to any version of Krypton that way, pitched as "Terminator meets Splash") and amnesiac (again, so the version of Krypton she came from would never be an issue).

I am not really sure about that. The first issue of Superman/Batman clearly shows Jor-El and Lara's hands and the rocket in Birthright style. Supergirl - the Kara version - had lots of continuity problems, the first series she starred in (the Loeb/Chruchill one) was a mess, and the same could be said for Rucka's brief tenure, Kelly's, etc.
Again, I am not really sure about the movie adaptation thing - when Birthright was out, there was just one Superman adaptation, that is Smallville - and in one of the first seasons they showed Jor-El's and Kara's hands depicted in Birthright style. In later seasons they were changed in order to adapt the Donneresque white robe. But when Superman/Batman was out, Loeb was a pretty important guy at DC - he even had some role as consultant/supervisor for Smallville, hence the synergy between TV Series and Comics.

Johns pitched Donner-esque Krypton as more movie friendly but they gave Jor-El a beard because it heightened the God analogies, made him look less like Superman himself, and didn't look anything like Marlon Brando (whose appearance they didn't have the rights to) while having white hair.

Correct, even if I think that the Marlon Brando thing was the most important reason (they were adapting Superman Returns, with Brando/Jor-El once again).

[Myskin]

Also, I'll take the liberty of quoting myself about something I thought about the movie/comics synergy a couple of days ago:

I'd like to share some thoughts about the timing of the whole Rebirth operation, and - in particular - the whole Optimism vs Cynicism thing, that is one of the details which bugs me the most. This element of cynicism is particularly emphasized in several dialogues concerning SuperDad, and in some of the creators' interviews, too. As I said elsewhere, I think that they're making the New52 appear way darker than it really was in retrospect, in order to make the Rebirth issues way brighter in comparison.

Well, someone - I think that it was in this thread, but I am not 100% sure - said that SuperDad is DC's way to make their comics more similar to the movies. I don't think that I agree - SuperDad is too different from Henry Cavill's Superman: he has a kid, Luthor is thoroughly different, etc.

Buuuuut.... I'll play conspiracy theory just for once. Well, I'm beginning to think that the movies are involved in the operation, but not in the way most of us think. The Rebirth event has been announced in the exact same moment when Geoff Johns became involved in the creation of the DC movieverse as a producer - that is, the guy who is supposed to change the direction of movies which, rightly or wrongly, have been considered "too dark" for the viewers so far.

Well... What if Rebirth is just a giant marketing move which paves the way for Johns' involvement in the MOVIES, rather than the comics? That is: what if Rebirth is simply meant to build Johns' reputation as a torchbearer who will make brighter DC movies, rather than DC comic books? I think that this would justify a lot of the recent moves on DC's part. Including, but not limited to, the fact that for the most part DC Rebirth series are written by relatively secondary writers (including Jurgens). It's as if... Yes, it's a relaunch, but not a long-term revamp (not in the same way the New52 was, or appeared to be). I mean, I seriously doubt that in six months from now someone will be REALLY interested in Dan Abnett's Aquaman, except for longtime fans. But a lot of people will be interested in Geoff Johns' involvement in Justice League - the movie.

Basically, I've got the impression that comics are a secondary byproduct of this move. Before Rebirth, I wasn't so sure that Johns' involvement in DC movies would be this well-accepted - yes, he has lots of fans, but he was 100% involved in the New52 (it doesn't matter that it was mainly Didio's idea, Johns was entirely part of it) and his partial participation to GL - the movie didn't earn him a good reputation in cinematic adaptations. But I think that now people are looking at him more favorably.

Also: it works in a bizarrely meta way. "Geoff Johns is making the brightness of DCU fight the darkness of Alan Moore's Watchmen!" Well, just change "Alan Moore" with "Zack Snyder", and this statement will be more well-received.

Just conspiracy theory, as I said.

[Sacred Knight]

In a way, one big commercial for fixing the movies? I could see that. Easily. WB certainly cares a hell of a lot more about movies than it does comics anyway. Marvel already operates in that fashion.

[Myskin]

In a way, one big commercial for fixing the movies?

Indirectly, yes. Or rather, to pave the way for the public image of Johns as "the guy who will bring light to DC movies".

To be more precise, I don't know if the main idea behind Rebirth (the return of pre-FP continuity) was entirely defined from the beginning. One bizarre detail which I just noticed is that Mr Oz (who, I think, was supposed to be Ozymandias from the very beginning) appeared in August 2014, while New52 Wally West was introduced in June 2014, that is more or less at the same time. Maybe it's because of bad synergy between editors, but I really can't understand why they introduced an entirely new version of Wally if they had already decided to reboot everything.

But yes, I think that the final decisions about Rebirth and in particular the way it was promoted (the whole apathy vs optimism thing, etc) were conceived as a consequence of the reactions to Supes vs Bats.

[Myskin]

OK... I gave some thoughts to the whole Nuwally thing. This is what I put together:

1- NuWally was introduced in June 2014 (Flash annual 3). I think that - as usual - the issue was out in April 2014, that is, a couple of months earlier.
2- Mr Oz was introduced in August 2014 (Superman 32).
3- Wally West was introduced in The Flash TV series in the second season (after October 2015).
4- Manapul and Buccellato wanted to introduce New52 Wally in their stories, but the character was off-limit.

I have zero evidence to support my theory, but the way I see it - Nuwally was created just because of synergy with the series and nothing else. But while they were creating him, at the very same moment, they were figuring out a way to go back to pre-FP continuity.

Which leads me to think... What's the use? I mean, seriously, the whole Nuperman vs SuperDad thing, the whole Rebirth operation, or even the New52... Why do we all get angry for these moves, or even follow the stories? They don't have any narrative meaning, they don't really explore a new creative path, they are just marketing and commercial. Of course, it has always been like that, but this is the first time I have a very strong sensation that the comics are entirely subordinate to marketing gimmicks.

[vasir12]

OK... I gave some thoughts to the whole Nuwally thing. This is what I put together:

1- NuWally was introduced in June 2014 (Flash annual 3). I think that - as usual - the issue was out in April 2014, that is, a couple of months earlier.
2- Mr Oz was introduced in August 2014 (Superman 32).
3- Wally West was introduced in The Flash TV series in the second season (after October 2015).
4- Manapul and Buccellato wanted to introduce New52 Wally in their stories, but the character was off-limit.

I have zero evidence to support my theory, but the way I see it - Nuwally was created just because of synergy with the series and nothing else. But while they were creating him, at the very same moment, they were figuring out a way to go back to pre-FP continuity.

Which leads me to think... What's the use? I mean, seriously, the whole Nuperman vs SuperDad thing, the whole Rebirth operation, or even the New52... Why do we all get angry for these moves, or even follow the stories? They don't have any narrative meaning, they don't really explore a new creative path, they are just marketing and commercial. Of course, it has always been like that, but this is the first time I have a very strong sensation that the comics are entirely subordinate to marketing gimmicks.

I see what you're saying, but couldn't also be the case that they made Wally black in the show cause they were making him black in the comics?

[Myskin]

I see what you're saying, but couldn't also be the case that they made Wally black in the show cause they were making him black in the comics?

I think that, generally speaking, TV shows and movies influence comics way more than comics influence TV shows and movies. That's where the real money is. Also, Iris had already been cast as a black woman in the TV show and I think that most people expected TV Wally to be black, too.

[randomengine]

Seeing the original numbering on comics has a calming effect on me. Everything is right with the world.