Super-Confused (SPOILERS)

[mjayg]

I guess I have to go reread Rebirth and Superman: Rebirth as I'm very confused.

My understanding was the New 52 universe IS the same universe as the pre-Flashpoint universe, just altered by Doc M.

So if that is the case, why were there two Supermen? Maybe I missed something along the way or am forgetting something but I don't get it...

Is there another Batman or other characters too? Why only Superman (and Lois)?

Is there another Lex Luthor? Please, no.

'splainy?

[Dispenser Of Truth]

We don't know how. In Convergence, all the old universes were briefly plucked out of time, and the Post-Crisis Superman and Lois (along with their newborn kid Jon) ended up not going back with their own world, but instead plucked down in the New 52 universe. Now, of course, we've just been told it's the same universe, so it's a mystery; Geoff Johns has said that's supposed to be a question at this point, with the bit from Rebirth where "Mr. Oz" says neither Superman is or was who they think they are playing into it.

[adrikito]

For the return of the old.. DC has become this in a mad thing..

It was not enough to return the others old characters? Characters with only one version...

No.. now even replace existing characters... Because they believe that new52 superman was not what they wanted and now is death.. The funny, this replacement was thinking before TRUTH .. When all was well in new52..

[mjayg]

Thanks for the info all!

It sounds like they were going one way with the two Supermen thing and then Rebirth changed everything so... guess we'll see how they explain it.

[Patrick Gerard]

Thanks for the info all!

It sounds like they were going one way with the two Supermen thing and then Rebirth changed everything so... guess we'll see how they explain it.

Sort of. I can say from what I understand that Jurgens definitely pitched a lot of what was done with the pre-Flashpoint Superman. Johns may have had similar or coordinated plans from a very early phase of things. Frankly, I think as soon as they did the Superman/Wonder Woman pairing, it was the first tell that they weren't 100% committed to the New 52 Superman and it was getting more obvious by the time of Truth. That's the sort of thing you do because you have reset buttons already in mind.

And if you go back to the WW/Superman pairing's first issue, you have Booster Gold saying it shouldn't be happening. The specifics may have evolved. But I think basically every chance they took with the New 52 Superman was taken because they knew he had a finite run and that a reset button was being crafted. But they let the risky stuff play out to generate sales and see what might work enough to consider keeping.

I don't think the New 52 was ever really going to be permanent. It was R&D for a more subtle revamp that they'd revert back to later. I said that at the time. Throw everything at the wall. See what sticks. Go back to the old way but keep what stuck. I think it was more of a creative and editorial exercise to generate ideas for testing the limits of what they could do than it was really a permanent line. And I think Johns was in on that from a very early stage of things. And Jurgens was encouraged to try stuff that Johns knew would fit into the longer gameplan.

As for Morrison? Well. His run was originally what he had planned for All-Star Superman 2 but publishing it in the main line seemed like a good idea at the time.

[Sacred Knight]

Personally I think you're giving them WAY too much credit in regards to having this all planned out minus specific details. The reality isn't anywhere near that on point and to plan. New 52 was definitely meant to be permanent. That it lasted longer than a year is a testament to that. That they're backing out now isn't a sign that it was always the plan, rather more of a sign that they're panicking because WB still is not happy. Jobs are on the line here once again, of that there is no doubt. Its why the New 52 happened, and its why they're reneging now. Its all panic moves.

[Patrick Gerard]

Personally I think you're giving them WAY too much credit in regards to having this all planned out minus specific details. The reality isn't anywhere near that on point and to plan. New 52 was definitely meant to be permanent. That it lasted longer than a year is a testament to that. That they're backing out now isn't a sign that it was always the plan, rather more of a sign that they're panicking because WB still is not happy. Jobs are on the line here once again, of that there is no doubt. Its why the New 52 happened, and its why they're reneging now. Its all panic moves.

I'm not saying it was a perfect plan. I think Johns started seeding some things without always knowing exactly what the payoff was but the plots were out there as things he could go back to. Contingencies.

I don't know that he knew what Booster was going on about there or the business about the two Boosters and Futures End but I think he planted Booster's line in that issue as an escape hatch he could use later.

I think he knew who Mr. Oz was when he was writing Superman but probably had 3-4 alternate ideas in mind.

I know sometimes writers plant seeds for stories without being sure of where they'll land. Luthor started hinting about running for president before Eddie signed off on it back in 2000 or so. As I recall it being explained somewhere, Eddie called up Jeph and said, "What's up with that line? Is he thinking about running for president?" And Loeb shot back something like, "That was my thought. Can we do that?" Eddie said back something like, "Sure." And Jeph said something like, "Of course, there's no point in going down this road if he doesn't win." But the seed was planted with different ways it could go. I think Johns has been doing some of that. He's building escape hatches into the floor. Now, if you opened up those hatches, you might not find a tunnel tug yet but the hatch is there for an escape tunnel that doesn't exist yet.

[Sacred Knight]

I DO think Johns knew who Mr. Oz was all along. According to Jurgens the plan to switch out Superman (or whatever the hell they're doing with him) was in the books going into the Lois and Clark mini so it was an idea before Rebirth itself was even a thing.

[The Shredder]

I don't think the New 52 was ever really going to be permanent. It was R&D for a more subtle revamp that they'd revert back to later. I said that at the time. Throw everything at the wall. See what sticks. Go back to the old way but keep what stuck. I think it was more of a creative and editorial exercise to generate ideas for testing the limits of what they could do than it was really a permanent line. And I think Johns was in on that from a very early stage of things. And Jurgens was encouraged to try stuff that Johns knew would fit into the longer gameplan.

I think DC went into the New52 with great earnest, even if it wasn't exactly 100%. The whole Pandora thing came very much across as DC's way of giving themselves an out right from the jump. Course the trigger aimed on her wasn't pulled till much later due to the New52's success, but her demise certainly is symbolic of the New52 era ending, and the Rebirth era being the now-next step.

I do agree with the comment about DC throwing alot at the wall. To me, it was akin to Marvel's Ultimate line of books. Fresh, and easily accessible for a number of years, but after awhile, the line got bogged down by horrid editorial decisions, questionable character/behavior/backstory changes, and lazy gimmicks. It goes without saying that a healthy portion of Marvel readers did not wholly gravitate to all the changes the Ultimate universe brought and it's incarnations of characters, much like how a healthy portion of DC readers didn't find the New52, and it's changes, to their liking.

I don't doubt Johns probably was planting to some seeds here and there prior to Rebirth being conceived due to him probably seeing the writing on the wall. As DC's cancellations becoming much too commonplace, and the over-reliance on the Bat-Titles to keep them afloat most definitely wasn't anything that could be described as a outstanding business model.