Detective Comics #934 discussion (spoilers)

[bat_girl_cc]

I'm already thinking in keeping up with BOP and All star Batman, and possibly Wonder Woman too, since now every major series its twice a month, we have to think carefully what series to invest in, and sadly i might have to drop Batman eventually if the series fails to gather my interest which so far hasn't done it.

[bat_girl_cc]

I'm just wondering: do you only like Cass because she's a great fighter?
I'm curious because I really like her too, but her fighting skills are irrelevant AFAIC.

Nope, i like literally everything about Cass, her personallity, her skills, her willpower, how she can still be nice to others despite what she's been through. etc.

[Caivu]

I'm not really sold to Batwomam as a team player. Doesn't really fit how she was written before, and she was afaik never really member of a military unit.

That apparently everyone can find out about Batmans identity and can hack Tims computer becomes ridiculous.

Of all the Clayfaces (there are afaik close to 10) Basil Karlo is really the one that is the least fitting for becoming a hero.

Supervillains with secret Armies that want to conquer Gotham is slowly becoming old.

1. She's been on a number of teamups, so it's not that weird. Plus this seems like a situation that requires some of her skills as far as military knowledge goes. She's never trained a group, but she knows what that kind of training is like and can pass on those lessons.

2. Kate knowing Bruce is Batman isn't so weird. She's smart and they're literally family. Tim's computer... I'm saying it was a fake lockout that he put in place just in case someone tried something funny.

3. Can't really speak to this one way or the other.

4. Agreed.

[Caivu]

Nope, i like literally everything about Cass, her personallity, her skills, her willpower, how she can still be nice to others despite what she's been through. etc.

Cool, nice to hear. Cass is too good of a character to just Flanderize into "badass fighter".

[SneakyLookingSort]

Lol, she only had trouble fighting random metas on 2 ocasions that i recall, once on Batgirl #3 (her first ever fight against a meta, hence why it was a issue for her, and even then she won and that meta got the drop on Batman) and on Batgirl #49 because that way they could have Batman helping which served as set up for Batman vs Cass on issue #50 it was more plot-driven than anything-else...appart from those, we have Batgirl #10 (with one kick Cass sents a huge bullet-proof guy flying across a room with enough force to leave a small crater on a brick Wall, we have Batgirl #33 (Cass K.O's a super-human with one punch, said to be hard enough to crash a human skull) Batgirl #45 (a meta-human was throwing cars around like if they were ping pong balls and she put him down with one pressure-point) and i can go on, and on...
Her fights against Deathstroke and Lady Shiva were never a walk on the park, those words are yours not mine, Cass stallemated Deathstroke 3 times on the 3 fights that they've had (Nightwing #81 Batgirl #63 and Teen Titans #45) against Lady Shiva they had many fights, the final record was 2-1-2 (2 wins, 1 stallemate, 2 losses, each) although Cassandra's losse's have context though, Cass had lost her Body-Reading on the first, and she wantted to die on the second.
Against Batman, Batman won a sparring-session between the 2 when she had lost her Body-Reading, when she got it back she made him look like a old man, they stallemated in a big fight through the city on Batgirl #50 but it toke Batman gear+gadgets+dirty tactics to do so while Cass was only going raw h2h the whole time and in the end it was stated that neither was going all out, the only other time that they've fought was on Gotham Knights #5 and Cass out-fighted what we can call a "morals off" Batman (he tried to kill the key) and forced him to flee.
Anyway, it was stated on Batgirl#68 that she could had taken down like in "permenently taken down" villains like Shiva and Deathstroke and she choosed not to, and on Batgirl#70 it was stated that prior to that point Cass had never fought anyone for real ever, and that was alreayd near the end of her Batgirl run.
Btw, i only wish for Cass to be written accordingly and get the respect that she deserves, which i think Tynion is the right person for the job.
And again, for those of you that would like a new weaker Cass in comparrison to her former-self, so far, you have nothing to worry about.

I just said that she did have struggles that were fighting related.

Besides:
-Knocking out an already KO'd metahuman hardly counts.
-The female Soul-gang was giving her trouble (until she accidentally swallowed some drugs and was able to overcome the side effects)
-Also don't forget the fight against "Brotherhood of Evil" in Batgirl 61 that almost lead to her death.
-There's no thing such as dirty tactics when you are fighting against a here who's known for using gadgets.

[Aahz]

3. Can't really speak to this one way or the other.

Basil Karlo became originally a Serial Killer way before he even got powers. Of all the Calyfaces he was probably the most evil one.

I know they changed his origin and that he is know the only Clayface. But him becoming a hero is still strange for me.

[Lhynn]

Cricket whooped cassandra.

[twincast]

Basil Karlo became originally a Serial Killer way before he even got powers. Of all the Calyfaces he was probably the most evil one.

I know they changed his origin and that he is know the only Clayface. But him becoming a hero is still strange for me.

Well, like I wrote in another thread, the DCAU people combined various aspects of the first four Clayfaces (i.e. the Mud Pack) into a single character whom they rather randomly applied the Silver Age Clayface's Matt Hagan name to (and established a look all Clayface incarnations have had since). The New 52 got rid of all the comics Clayfaces, took that exact same amalgam character and - honestly slightly less randomly - gave him the Golden Age Clayface's Basil Karlo name. Personally, a basic distaste for New 52 changes aside, I'm fine with it, but I've admittedly never been heavily invested in the plethora of Clayfaces to begin with.

[bat_girl_cc]

I just said that she did have struggles that were fighting related.

Besides:
-Knocking out an already KO'd metahuman hardly counts.
-The female Soul-gang was giving her trouble (until she accidentally swallowed some drugs and was able to overcome the side effects)
-Also don't forget the fight against "Brotherhood of Evil" in Batgirl 61 that almost lead to her death.
-There's no thing such as dirty tactics when you are fighting against a here who's known for using gadgets.

Hardly
I know, she lost that fight because she had trouble Body-Reading the brotherhood's meta, a huge Gorilla name Malah, but when she faced them again she won soundly.
- Don't forget that instance on Batgirl #49 when Cass toke out 50 people in about 2 seconds, those same people were beating Tim Drake down, he called Oracle for help, and Cass came in, and used the "falling leaf" a secret tecnhique, and toke them all out so fast that Tim didn't even saw anything.
- Batman tried to evade Cass multiple times during their confrontation on Batgirl #50 because he knew that if he got too close he would be toast, he tried to make her fall from a moving truck by pushing the stuff where she landed, he used flashbangs, a chain, and in the end he even blew up a entire bridge, nothing worked, and they hugged below the water to finish the fight.

[Factor]

I really liked it. Cast is pretty good, the art was gorgeous and it was a great introduction to the team and concept.

[bat_girl_cc]

Cricket whooped cassandra.

Cricket was a speedster that appeared only in 2 issues of the Red Robin series at the time, he completely speed-blitzed both Cass and Tim at the same time and stomped them...Tim Drake even remarked that it looked like he received poweres from the speed-force, but he didn't, and considering that Tim is friends with several speedsters, i'd say that he knows what he was talking about...the point is, likewise, even tho Cricket was no flash, he was vastly meta-human in speed, so he doesn't count...it would be like Cass vs kid-flash, far from a fair fight.

[bat_girl_cc]

I really liked it. Cast is pretty good, the art was gorgeous and it was a great introduction to the team and concept.

This.
My thoughts exactly.

[Lhynn]

Cricket was a speedster that appeared only in 2 issues of the Red Robin series at the time, he completely speed-blitzed both Cass and Tim at the same time and stomped them...Tim Drake even remarked that it looked like he received poweres from the speed-force, but he didn't, and considering that Tim is friends with several speedsters, i'd say that he knows what he was talking about...the point is, likewise, even tho Cricket was no flash, he was vastly meta-human in speed, so he doesn't count...it would be like Cass vs kid-flash, far from a fair fight.

Really strange way to put it "it isnt fair". Its never fair, tim took on the joker and his entire crew when he was 12 and it was hardly fair given his own set of skills. In fact it would have been impossible if he had approached things like cass would.
Whats baffling is that she never actually met stronger dudes before, there are plenty that could whoop cass in the DC universe, and it would make for interesting stories.

[gwangung]

Nope, i like literally everything about Cass, her personallity, her skills, her willpower, how she can still be nice to others despite what she's been through. etc.

Yes. It's that combination of the ultimate fighter with a quasi-handicap with a character/personality that you have to work at to perceive. If you're sloppy, you just see the silent, kickass fighter. The more observant notices her heart, her compassion and her yearning to have justice and do good.

[JLH]

I really liked it. Cast is pretty good, the art was gorgeous and it was a great introduction to the team and concept.

Ditto. I dropped DETECTIVE COMICS a good year ago (after reading it for something like 40 years) but after adding it to my pull list as of REBIRTH, I was a bit worried it wouldn't be as good/interesting as I initially thought. Turns out it didn't let me down. Hope future issues are as good as this one.