JLA "Rebirth"? Where's the Big Seven?

[Starchild]

I think Justice League will be a good place for Baz and Cruz. They need all the exposure and development they can get & with Justice League being DC's flagship team, it's guaranteed. (debatable)

Do you know how hard it is for new characters to catch on? especially poc.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Your phrasing...


... certainly seems to imply differently, as you seem to assume he would be offended by their ethnicities.

Ethnicities, tastes and everything? Well, one can focus in just one word if they choose to. But I didn't write just that one word.

And that sentence alone is taken way out of context, since the notion I was referring to is "Hal Jordan not being treated as the be all/end all of the Green Lanterns mythos, which is there just in the previous sentence, same paragraph. So, if you are assuming that I called the guy racist (I didn't), you're way off. I did call him insensitive, since the reason for Baz and Cruz is pretty obvious.

Which is a very silly reason to like a character, as focusing that heavily on a character's race is damaging. If the character is good, that's why you should like them.

Actually, no, it isn't. A character is a sum of characteristics, and the reasons people feel attached to them or not are their own. So far, what we got on Baz is that he is a little bit of a hot-head, ands what we got on Cruz is that she is agoraphobic. They may grow to be excellent characters, or they may suck in the long run, but at this stage they're pretty much clean canvasses. It's not like NuWally where DC burned it's shot right at the start line with every mistake possible.

Race should have nothing to do with it.

Why not? Wanting non-white characters in the spotlight is suddenly frowned upon because they're not "proven"? How the hell are they supposed to be if kept on the sidelines?

[Johnrevenge]

I think Justice League will be a good place for Baz and Cruz. They need all the exposure and development they can get & with Justice League being DC's flagship team, it's guaranteed. (debatable)

Do you know how hard it is for new characters to catch on? especially poc.

Yeah, as we saw in the DC rebirth issue of Green lantern, the Justice League will also help to train both Simon and Jessica while Hal is away, so it's a good place them to train as they are going to stay in Earth.

[NeuroticNyx]

Ethnicities, tastes and everything? Well, one can focus in just one word if they choose to. But I didn't write just that one word.

No but you certainly implied ethnicity as a factor.

Actually, no, it isn't. A character is a sum of characteristics, and the reasons people feel attached to them or not are their own.

Okay, so what if I were to say I like Superman because he's white?

I'm going to assume you're not going to criticize that at all, given your stance here.

So far, what we got on Baz is that he is a little bit of a hot-head, ands what we got on Cruz is that she is agoraphobic. They may grow to be excellent characters, or they may suck in the long run, but at this stage they're pretty much clean canvasses. It's not like NuWally where DC burned it's shot right at the start line with every mistake possible.

Well good. I hope they grow to be great characters that are three-dimensional and nuanced.

Why not? Wanting non-white characters in the spotlight is suddenly frowned upon because they're not "proven"? How the hell are they supposed to be if kept on the sidelines?

What do you even mean by "proven"? I'm saying that one should not focus so hard on race. If the character is written well and three dimensional, and you like them because of their personality and whatnot, then okay.

If you like a character like John Stewart just because they're black, then I worry about you focusing so much on the race of the character and not, you know, the character.

[etamogrey]

John Stewart is a great character that was created with the intention of making a Black GL so that Denny and Neil could discuss race within the comics, other writers would eventually come to fully develop him as a character. Later on when the JLA cartoon creators chose to ignore the "big 7" and include him simply so the league wasn't an all white club he was introduced to countless black kids such as myself who immediately latched on to him because he did indeed look like us. That is what got me into comics ,so yes race does matter because DC can use it to sell. Now it looks like their trying the same thing with Baz and Jess. Cyborg already has a movie so I guess that's a win?

[BohemiaDrinker]

No but you certainly implied ethnicity as a factor.

A factor in why I welcome them. A factor in why they bring stuff to the table that Jordan couldn't. Not a factor for the guy disliking them. He did say that the League was "Hal Jordan's real-state", though. Which I countered with "the more diversity, the better". He may not care about the issue, but he can't really ignore it and expect everyone else to.

Okay, so what if I were to say I like Superman because he's white?

I'm going to assume you're not going to criticize that at all, given your stance here.

Well, it depends: if that is a consequence of you liking square-jawed, broad shouldered guys with blue eyes, not at all. If it's because you're a white supremacist, then yes.

That said, white people are neither under-represented nor poorly so; you want a white character to relate to, you get to choose on the overwhelming majority of superheroes at the big 2. If you want a black one, there are quite a few good options today (though that's recent, and we could use more).

Want a Muslim one? Then it's Baz or Kamala, AFAIK, and they're both new characters. Should they not have a chance to shine?

Well good. I hope they grow to be great characters that are three-dimensional and nuanced.

So do most of us, I think. But for that, Hal Jordan will have to loose a teeny bit of the humongous space he's been occupying since forever, even if he does so while still headlining his own book. Is that so terrible?

What do you even mean by "proven"? I'm saying that one should not focus so hard on race. If the character is written well and three dimensional, and you like them because of their personality and whatnot, then okay.

If you like a character like John Stewart just because they're black, then I worry about you focusing so much on the race of the character and not, you know, the character.

Let me ask, have you ever seem a bunch of kids arguing about who gets to be Black Vulcan at recess? I have, it's kinda sad (because Black Vulcan is pretty lame, and yet it's all they had). Yeah, of course I want characters who are POC to be written well. I want all characters to be written well, even the white ones (despite my alleged problem with them). Yet, the ethnicity, gender and look of character is defined before he or she ever leaves the drawing board; having minorities as characters has to be a conscious choice, because that's the only way they'll exist in the first place.

[BohemiaDrinker]

John Stewart is a great character that was created with the intention of making a Black GL so that Denny and Neil could discuss race within the comics, other writers would eventually come to fully develop him as a character. Later on when the JLA cartoon creators chose to ignore the "big 7" and include him simply so the league wasn't an all white club he was introduced to countless black kids such as myself who immediately latched on to him because he did indeed look like us. That is what got me into comics ,so yes race does matter because DC can use it to sell. Now it looks like their trying the same thing with Baz and Jess. Cyborg already has a movie so I guess that's a win?

NeuroticNyx, see what this guys is saying? This stuff matters.

[etamogrey]

Also yes I know John isn't a seller but the last book he headlined GLC did well enough. Also despite being super popular because of the show he never once headlined a GL comic or was even on a JL team for a long time. Anyways you don't need 7 to sell a JL book Batman, Superman and maybe Wonder Woman are all you need for aJL book that sells.

[Lee Stone]

Using Mike's Amazing World, here's the JLA of the '70s, from JLA #78 up through JLA #173:

1. Superman (88 issues)
2. Batman (82)
3. Flash (80)
4. Green Lantern/Hal Jordan (78)
5. Green Arrow (71)
6. Black Canary (67)
7. Hawkman (64)
8. Atom (56)
9. Aquaman (48)
10. Elongated Man (43)
11. Red Tornado (38)
12. Wonder Woman (32)
13. Hawkgirl (12)
14. Zatanna (11)

And from Brave and the Bold #28 up through JLA #173 (60s and 70s combined):

1. Superman (152 issues)
2. Batman (151)
3. Flash (148)
4. Green Lantern/Hal Jordan (146)
5. Green Arrow (122)
6. Atom (106)
7. Aquaman (96)
8. Hawkman (94)
9. Wonder Woman (88)
10. Black Canary (69)
11. Martian Manhunter (44)
12. Elongated Man (43)
13. Red Tornado (38)
14. Hawkgirl (12)
15. Zatanna (11)

[Agent Z]

I disagree. We need good characters and if they turn out to be non-white, then that's fine.

But you should never set out specifically to make a non-white character or try and add some for diversity, or the characters end up shallow and forced... Which is what I felt in Green Lanterns: Rebirth with Simon Baz.



Not if in the process of being 'inclusive' you introduce a bunch of uninspired characters whose defining trait is their token status, which comes off to me as much more offensive and harmful than not having a diverse cast.

Really, this entire line of discussion was uncalled for. OP never said anything about having a problem with their race/sex, you simply assumed it.

And really, what does that say about you, when someone says they don't like the characters, you immediately assume it has to do with their race or their sex? Is that really all they are to you? Tokens? Not needed because they're good characters, but because they're 'necessary' to promote some message of inclusiveness?

Isn't it a little early to say the only trait of Simon and Jessica is their token status?

[Icefalcon]

Using Mike's Amazing World, here's the JLA of the '70s, from JLA #78 up through JLA #173:

1. Superman (88 issues)
2. Batman (82)
3. Flash (80)
4. Green Lantern/Hal Jordan (78)
5. Green Arrow (71)
6. Black Canary (67)
7. Hawkman (64)
8. Atom (56)
9. Aquaman (48)
10. Elongated Man (43)
11. Red Tornado (38)
12. Wonder Woman (32)
13. Hawkgirl (12)
14. Zatanna (11)

And from Brave and the Bold #28 up through JLA #173 (60s and 70s combined):

1. Superman (152 issues)
2. Batman (151)
3. Flash (148)
4. Green Lantern/Hal Jordan (146)
5. Green Arrow (122)
6. Atom (106)
7. Aquaman (96)
8. Hawkman (94)
9. Wonder Woman (88)
10. Black Canary (69)
11. Martian Manhunter (44)
12. Elongated Man (43)
13. Red Tornado (38)
14. Hawkgirl (12)
15. Zatanna (11)

That bears out my memory as a kid when Martian Manhunter and Elongated Man both seemed to be guest stars more than regulars

[MadFacedKid]

Using Mike's Amazing World, here's the JLA of the '70s, from JLA #78 up through JLA #173:

1. Superman (88 issues)
2. Batman (82)
3. Flash (80)
4. Green Lantern/Hal Jordan (78)
5. Green Arrow (71)
6. Black Canary (67)
7. Hawkman (64)
8. Atom (56)
9. Aquaman (48)
10. Elongated Man (43)
11. Red Tornado (38)
12. Wonder Woman (32)
13. Hawkgirl (12)
14. Zatanna (11)

And from Brave and the Bold #28 up through JLA #173 (60s and 70s combined):

1. Superman (152 issues)
2. Batman (151)
3. Flash (148)
4. Green Lantern/Hal Jordan (146)
5. Green Arrow (122)
6. Atom (106)
7. Aquaman (96)
8. Hawkman (94)
9. Wonder Woman (88)
10. Black Canary (69)
11. Martian Manhunter (44)
12. Elongated Man (43)
13. Red Tornado (38)
14. Hawkgirl (12)
15. Zatanna (11)

Appreciate this that's really interesting given number of appearances I'm wondering what happened to Elongated Man that has him not as premiered as the others.

[Dr. Poison]

I'm all for more diversity in the League but what I am annoyed with is that most of the time, it comes at Hal Jordan's expense.

[C_Miller]

I'm all for more diversity in the League but what I am annoyed with is that most of the time, it comes at Hal Jordan's expense.

It's because Green Lantern is the one major League property that can have diversity injected into it without too much extra work.

I don't like Hal Jordan much at all, so I'm good with him being off the League. It helps that both Jessica and Simon interest me, but then again, a lot of minority characters interest me. They bring a certain perspective that can seldom be done with white characters. I'm just so used to the white male perspective that it's nice to see comics moving away from that. Not really moving away from that, but moving away from it being the only perspective.

I will say, I do miss Cyborg with the Titans. At the very least, he should graduate to the League, not be a founder, but I feel like he loses a lot of what made him a great character when you take his friends away.

[GlennSimpson]

Seems a good time to throw out my usual line - people who insist on the classic white characters getting all the spotlight (or are opposed to replacing a white character with a non-white one or any of the other things that tends to happen in the 21st century) are NOT necessarily racist.

But they do have their priorities mixed up, IN MY OPINION.