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  1. #166
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    I suspect that the ‘story’ is that the gods are somehow special. It makes sense that the pantheon would spend centuries thinking they were somehow different from ‘mortals’. Now that we know The Great Darkness is death. The only person running from it is Ananke. She is blind to the simple concept that death is inevitable and ironically ‘necessary’. Her false narrative is to fight death. To avoid it. That somehow she is a guardian of culture by staying alive and facilitating the Pantheon.

    The rules are a story. All human constructs are story. Culture is seen as a necessary story, but we should never forget it is artificial.

    It does not lessen religion or mythology to accept that it is made up by man. The Romans understood this. Very few cultures grasp it.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 09-16-2018 at 11:30 AM.

  2. #167
    Fantastic Member FeniSam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I suspect that the ‘story’ is that the gods are somehow special. It makes sense that the pantheon would spend centuries thinking they were somehow different from ‘mortals’. Now that we know The Great Darkness is death. The only person running from it is Ananke. She is blind to the simple concept that death is inevitable and ironically ‘necessary’. Her false narrative is to fight death. To avoid it. That somehow she is a guardian of culture by staying alive and facilitating the Pantheon.

    The rules are a story. All human constructs are story. Culture is seen as a necessary story, but we should never forget it is artificial.

    It does not lessen religion or mythology to accept that it is made up by man. The Romans understood this. Very few cultures grasp it.
    That last bit is particularly fascinating, and actually very thematically relevant: that divinity ceases to be divine when stripped down to the fact most of it begins as stories someone told and were believed as facts by masses for a long time. Maybe that's the third theme Gillen is always throwing around in his writer notes, the inherent nature of culture and our perception of it.

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  4. #169
    Fantastic Member FeniSam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjonator View Post
    LOL, such a Gillen thing to do. Now I think one of the theories floating around that the series will actually end on a subdued, subtle note and not with a bang seems more possible.

    OR, it might be so crazy and OTT that "Okay." will be all we'll be able to muster. Either way, I'm SO in.

    BTW, is that Jon in the main Cover? Or maybe just a fan?

  5. #170
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    So the 1373 special is perhaps the most extraneous so far. It does serve to underline the nihilism of Ananke, and her surety that there is no afterlife. It gives us an insight into her particular brand of evil and selfishness, and underlines her method - a mixture of control and distraction to achieve her aim of immortality - but it doesn't tell us much we can't already extrapolate. It feels a bit like a villain monologue seperated out from the main narrative to avoid cliche.

    It suggests that Minerva's ritual can't be conducted until everyone else is dead, but that may just be caution.

    A Lucifer that so clearly buys into her own identity is perhaps a bit of a wild card. I wonder if this was the first Lucifer? (Ah no - forgot "Julius Ceaser" and the implication that Lucifer has been around for a while) I wonder if that self-identification worked as a request? I still don't think Ananke looks into people's souls to discover which person gets which role. I think that is part of the lie she has bought into. She is probably a creature of habit, made cautious by the times her ritual has failed in the past.

    It clearly suggests the two year rule is a rule of thumb, and Ananke's assertion that they will inevitably destroy themselves seems more like a self fulfilling prophecy than a truism. Especially given the way she provokes the end in The Lighthouse and here.

    I did enjoy the very literal play on the word transubstantiation.

    I have also been rereading the last issue. It seems full of double meanings. I especially like the way Wōden mistakes Casandra's accusation of creapiness in pretending to be younger, for a straightforward question.

    In our timeline Wōden's task to recreate the powers of specific gods feels like a distraction which incidentally provides Minerva with weapons she can use. I imagine her belief that everything is on track now she has three heads lined up and Mimir's ready to steal once the other gods have destroyed each other and themselves, will prove to be hubris based on past experience. The wildcards being technology and youth culture, combined with an unforeseen role of Lucifer, who Ananke probably writes off as a firey god of the underworld.

    Perhaps not. Perhaps she chose Lucifer as her first victim precisely because she is an unpredictable wildcard, but still underestimated her choice of Laura.

    --

    Talking of Lucifer who would be Ceaser, I wonder if Laura's fire is a repeat of Julius' fire? In other words the thing Ananke was so concerned about was simply that one does not need to be a god to maintain the powers, and that once the deities throw off their divinity they can no longer be used in the ritual. If those deities that are heads also gave up their divinity Minerva would surely loose.

    ---

    Hang on. I may be on to something here. Lucifer is Jupiter (the morning star / planet). Lucifer plays Ceaser as Jupiter. He wears the red face of Jupiter and arrives at his temple in his triumph. Ceaser was not himself one of the emperors who would be a god, in many ways he wasn't quite an emperor, but Lucifer certainly went for the full symbolism. He is an actor who is playing a role of Ceaser who is in turn playing the role of a god. It is a dissociation by one step. A suggestion that being a god can be a mask worn by a role. The pantheon are at their most vulnerable when they perform because they are wearing their mask, but they do so with no remove, the gods wearing their own mask. Laura was a fan girl. We were reminded of this in the last issue. She was a human playing at being a god and has now taken that step away from the direct association with Persephone. Laura may be about to realise she was playing at being the pop star who puts on the mask of Persephone or for that matter any other aspect of that goddess. Which makes me want to go back and read issue 1.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 09-27-2018 at 09:40 AM.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Hang on. I may be on to something here. Lucifer is Jupiter (the morning star / planet).
    The Morning Star is Venus (or for part of the year, Mercury), not Jupiter. Because these two planets are inside the earth's orbit, they can be seen only close to the sun, i.e., just after sunset or just before dawn. Also, on account of its size and being relatively close to the sun, Venus is the brightest "star" in the sky whenever it is visible. The Lucifer myth relates to how the morning star can be seen only close to the horizon, and as it rises in the sky the sun soon rises behind it, and the brightest star Venus and the other stars then fade out of sight, so in spite of its brightness Venus can never be seen high in the heavens. The Lucifer myth is that the "brightest" angel Lucifer, the bringer of light, aspires to ascend to the throne of heaven, but as he ascends the true source of light (God) casts him down from the skies along with the other angels. This dawn myth does not apply to Jupiter, since like all the other outer planets it can be seen all night, rising up in the sky to its highest point and then setting on the other side.

  7. #172
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seismic-2 View Post
    The Morning Star is Venus (or for part of the year, Mercury), not Jupiter. Because these two planets are inside the earth's orbit, they can be seen only close to the sun, i.e., just after sunset or just before dawn. Also, on account of its size and being relatively close to the sun, Venus is the brightest "star" in the sky whenever it is visible. The Lucifer myth relates to how the morning star can be seen only close to the horizon, and as it rises in the sky the sun soon rises behind it, and the brightest star Venus and the other stars then fade out of sight, so in spite of its brightness Venus can never be seen high in the heavens. The Lucifer myth is that the "brightest" angel Lucifer, the bringer of light, aspires to ascend to the throne of heaven, but as he ascends the true source of light (God) casts him down from the skies along with the other angels. This dawn myth does not apply to Jupiter, since like all the other outer planets it can be seen all night, rising up in the sky to its highest point and then setting on the other side.
    It is often Jupiter depending upon the year / relative orbits. There is a long tradition of Lucifer being associated with Jupiter. I agree that when I usually think of the morning star I think of Venus, but that has less association with Lucifer (although some). I no longer have a star program to show where it was back then, so I don’t know how much research Gillen would have done on that, but he seems to be associating Jupiter with Lucifer.

    Jupiter is currently a very prominent evening star at the moment from my vantage point. The most prominent light in fact. It even shines through cloud.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 09-29-2018 at 09:57 AM.

  8. #173
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Issue 40 has me wondering:



    I have always had the feeling that we would head into an end game focused on the fans. Laura inspiring youth culture to rise up and do away with the Pantheon. Here we appear to have a young fan.

    Something about the story has always reminded me of Promethea and a coming magical 'Apocalypse' being ushered in. I doubt it will be quite so all encompassing and transformative as Alan Moore's vision of the future, but I do think the end game will be about a new way for humanity to pass on the torch without having to rely upon Ananke/Minerva's less than satisfactory methods.

    Although we may be heading into darker territory first, so let's hope this innocent looking youth survives the experience.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 10-03-2018 at 05:01 AM.

  9. #174
    Fantastic Member FeniSam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I have always had the feeling that we would head into an end game focused on the fans. Laura inspiring youth culture to rise up and do away with the Pantheon. Here we appear to have a young fan.

    Something about the story has always reminded me of Promethea and a coming magical 'Apocalypse' being ushered in. I doubt it will be quite so all encompassing and transformative as Alan Moore's vision of the future, but I do think the end game will be about a new way for humanity to pass on the torch without having to rely upon Ananke/Minerva's less than satisfactory methods.

    Although we may be heading into darker territory first, so let's hope this innocent looking youth survives the experience.
    I'm more inclined to believe that this guy is gonna get put through the ringer and set off a chain of events that ends with what you're describing, more or less. That depends on how "big" Gillen wants to close the book, but I imagine we have a few more trillion surprises and curveballs before the end.

  10. #175
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FeniSam View Post
    I'm more inclined to believe that this guy is gonna get put through the ringer and set off a chain of events that ends with what you're describing, more or less. That depends on how "big" Gillen wants to close the book, but I imagine we have a few more trillion surprises and curveballs before the end.
    There are only so many twists he can squeeze into what I imagine will be a single trade.

  11. #176
    Fantastic Member FeniSam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    There are only so many twists he can squeeze into what I imagine will be a single trade.
    Well, considering that Mothering Invention had multiple twists and turns (both in backstory and present-day events), I have no doubt he could pull it off, lol.

  12. #177
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    Each issue of the last arc, every single page is going to include at least one massive "he was dead the entire time"-level twist that completely upends our entire perception of everything that's happened. Every other page, someone will die.

  13. #178
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjonator View Post
    Each issue of the last arc, every single page is going to include at least one massive "he was dead the entire time"-level twist that completely upends our entire perception of everything that's happened. Every other page, someone will die.
    Ha ha. I imagine that would get quite tiresome.

    Seriously, we have been promised at least a look at what Persephone (or whatever her name was back in the distant past) has been doing throughout history, so I am still sticking to some simplified version of my grand theory. That we will find out Persephone has been shaping human culture to chisel out a space for youth culture. Thereby making Laura’s story possible. As to her story it seems many people are now expecting what I was predicting way back before this unified thread, that Laura will show others how to do the deity thing on their own, fulfilling the purpose of The Pantheon.

    On aspect I like about this potential story, is that Ananke has been playing her part. She has been ensuring the ongoing process all be it for selfish reasons. She has been rather stuck in a pattern, but even she seems to have been innovating and conducting secondary rituals like the Modern Prometheus ritual for example. It will be hard to redeem Ananke, but it would be nice if she doesn’t turn out to be an out and out villain.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 10-13-2018 at 12:56 AM.

  14. #179
    Fantastic Member FeniSam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Ha ha. I imagine that would get quite tiresome.

    Seriously, we have been promised at least a look at what Persephone (or whatever her name was back in the distant past) has been doing throughout history, so I am still sticking to some simplified version of my grand theory. That we will find out Persephone has been shaping human culture to chisel out a space for youth culture. Thereby making Laura’s story possible. As to her story it seems many people are now expecting what I was predicting way back before this unified thread, that Laura will show others how to do the deity thing on their own, fulfilling the purpose of The Pantheon.

    On aspect I like about this potential story, is that Ananke has been playing her part. She has been ensuring the ongoing process all be it for selfish reasons. She has been rather stuck in a pattern, but even she seems to have been innovating and conducting secondary rituals like the Modern Prometheus ritual for example. It will be hard to redeem Ananke, but it would be nice if she doesn’t turn out to be an out and out villain.
    It would be very Gillen to have Ananke do a Heel-Face Turn at the last moment, making all the (gruesomely detailed) backstory even richer by showing that even Ananke, who basically cornered herself into the same role for 6 millenia, is able to evolve. That'd be a nice beat.

  15. #180
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Any thoughts of the recent 1373?

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