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  1. #31
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    Since you guys seem too have all this knowledge about what happened behind the scene with the SM/WW pairing! I'd like to know the real reason for pairing SM and WW together as a couple, not just as a team fighting bad guys like Superman and Batman are?? What's the real story??
    Last edited by chlj1; 11-16-2014 at 02:51 PM.

  2. #32
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    Well, if they ignoring it, that tells me it's probably true that they didn't like it very much. They could have felt it was holding them back in the sense that they weren't able to explore other relationships or to use the "Superman/Clark/Lois triangle" in the way it had been used before the marriage. I don't have a strong feeling about it personally.
    the last superman creator JMS,not sure about the rest since I wasn't reading it, i don't know about the rest. I doubt Rucka ignored it. even if they ignored, put it apart and what push them back? only their not so creative minds. It's the same excuse for spider, superman, if creators can't tell stories with committed men it tell a lot how they are limited. Lois already knew the secret years before the marriage, there wasn't a triangle for 3 much before the marriage.

    Azz was against it, yes, that's true. (And I'm glad he kept it out of his book.) But that doesn't mean that some past or current Superman creators weren't for it. Of course, editors had to make the decision, but whether creators played a role in prompting the decision, I'm not sure.
    grant morrison wasn't for it, andy diggle that should be morrison sucessor wanted to explore lois/clark and was fired and lois/clark was one of the reasons. geaorge perez wanted lois to know the secret, I do not thing he was down to the idea of smww since his ww run. Lobdell used smww, but couldn't stop teasing clois. So I don't think smww is that well liked between superman creators;

    They were proposing "restoring the Clark/Lois/ Superman triangle" in 2000, that's true; but I don't know what their opinions were about that when the New 52 started.
    well, someone asked waid about superman dating WW, he said something about lois should be dead to it happen.
    Morrison changed of idea and wanted the marriage to still be the status quo, he revealed that to Gail simone

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by chlj1 View Post
    Since you guys seem too have all this knowledge about what happened behind the scene with the SM/WW pairing! I'd like to know the real reason for pairing SM and WW together as a couple, not just as a team fighting bad guys like Superman and Batman are?? What's the real story??
    I don't have any insider knowledge--like I said, I just think (based on a few things I've read here and there) that they decided that the Lois/Clark marriage wasn't working that that well creatively, and also they wanted to do something to get attention a year into the New 52, so they had the idea for this relationship.

    But we should probably get back to the topic of "The Fate of Lennox"! Does anyone think Lennox should have been paired with Superman?

    Just kidding. Seriously, though, I would like to see some follow-up on the idea that Lennox was apparently Wonder Girl's father.
    Last edited by Silvanus; 11-17-2014 at 07:53 AM.

  4. #34
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    grant morrison wasn't for it, andy diggle that should be morrison sucessor wanted to explore lois/clark and was fired and lois/clark was one of the reasons.
    And this is still completely unsubstantiated information. No reliable source has ever said this. Not one. You need to stop presenting this piece of hearsay as fact. If you believe it, fine, but address it as the rumor it is.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 11-16-2014 at 05:45 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    And this is still completely unsubstantiated information. No reliable source has ever said this. Not one. You need to stop presenting this piece of hearsay as fact. If you believe it, fine, but address it as the rumor it is.
    well he told it to someone in a con that doesn't has any reasons to lie about it. Going for his first two issues, that has base being it rumor or not. theres no way to confirm it officially, but also for somethong that came out of the creator mouth be called rumor.dont see.it right for me.
    Last edited by Blacksun; 11-16-2014 at 06:32 PM.

  6. #36
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    I don't have any insider knowledge--like I said, I just (based on a few things I've read here and there) that they decided that the Lois/Clark marriage wasn't working that that well creatively, and also they wanted to do something to get attention a year into the New 52, so they had the idea for this relationship.

    But we should probably get back to the topic of "The Fate of Lennox"! Does anyone think Lennox should have been paired with Superman?

    Just kidding. Seriously, though, I would like to see some follow-up on the idea that Lennox was apparently Wonder Girl's father.
    I think any discussion of the fate of Lennox should probably speculate, not only what was lost with him, but what was gained by his loss ..and what might have been. What might have been, with more development? A character created for use in the WW comic that could do for Wonder Woman's popularity, what pairing her with Superman or Batman might do - point fans back to reading WW. While Donna and Cassie were great characters, solidly entertaining and well-rounded, their appaearances in other comics (on hero teams, etc) haven't been able to accomplish that.

    Maybe, it won't be Lennox, ..considering he blowed up pretty good. Maybe, it'll be Steve Trevor [Agent Of S.H.I.E.L.D.] or a character, who hasn't been created yet. It's embarassing that the WW comic has been so artistically bankrupt that it must import characters, created for other comics, to use in WW! [Embarassing!] Who or whatever it is, I think that character should be created expressly for use in the WW comic, ..or we've got Nemesis, Orion and, now, Superman all over again.

    Can't build a solid Wonderverse, outsourcing major characters that have to be checked back into the DCU, elsewhere, like overdue library books! Isn't anyone else, here, tired of that?
    CRISIS ON INFINITE ORIGINS OF THE SUPERFLUOUS, MISSING MISTER WONDER...on WONDABUNGA!!! Look alive, Kangaliers!

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    well he told it to someone in a con that doesn't has any reasons to lie about it. Going for his first two issues, that has base being it rumor or not. theres no way to confirm it officially, but also for somethong that came out of the creator mouth be called rumor.dont see.it right for me.
    Wasn't there a article or something that Andy wanted to cut off superman's arm and the editor rejected the idea?
    Last edited by Superguy; 11-16-2014 at 10:05 PM.

  8. #38
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    well he told it to someone in a con that doesn't has any reasons to lie about it. Going for his first two issues, that has base being it rumor or not. theres no way to confirm it officially, but also for somethong that came out of the creator mouth be called rumor.dont see.it right for me.
    I apologize for the snarkiness, I didn't need to be that rough about it, I just think its worth it that when this comes up that you mention you heard it second-hand is all.

    With that said though, if there was any truth to the rumor, it would display a silly lack of communication on DC's side and a lack of research on Diggle's. The Superman and Wonder Woman thing had started two months before Diggle accepted the job, and with the hype and fanfare the idea was getting, he had to know Lois in a romantic light was off the table in any proper continuity book. And if he didn't know, he wasn't paying proper attention to the current events of the character he was looking into taking over. On the other hand they should have mentioned "by the way, we've just started a romance with Wonder Woman in case you didn't know, and we plan to explore it for a while, so the classic Lois and Clark romantic undertones are gone".

    ...And oh dear this is woefully off-topic. My apologies for that too! I shall bow out.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 11-16-2014 at 10:12 PM.

  9. #39
    Moderate Javier Velasco's Avatar
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    Hi everyone,

    As has been suggested this thread is about The Fate of Lennox, not Superman/WW. Feel free to start a new thread regarding Superman/WW if you wish, but let's get this thread back on track.

    Thank you,

    Javier

  10. #40
    Stop a war with love. Darius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    No he wasnt. Lennox was supposed to be her big brother who would help her out, not specifically in combat, but in the general journey. Orion was the douchey guy who might have potential to become a love interest. Not her brother the way Lennox was.

    And Lennox, despite his limited fighting abilities did something greater than anyone in the team, he gave his life so that the others would escape and survive. That's what a big brother does and it's commendable. You wanted him to be a superhero that breaks out of the WW book, good for you, that's not what Azz wanted.

    I wish Optimus Prime would transform into a toaster, but that's not the case. That doesnt invalidate him, or Lennox.
    1st ... LOL, now I want Optimus Prime to transform into a toaster.
    2nd I agree ... Lennox was your basic Obi-Wan character ... Instilled a little information (in this case introduced her to some siblings and gave her some color commentary on them) became someone our hero respects and relies on for advice, and finally sacrifices his life so that our hero can live to fight another day. His role was fulfilled so his death had meaning.

    Maybe Lennox ghost will start haunting Diana at some point

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    I get why Mel and Carabas and others think Lennox was, in one way or another, created to be killed. If you believe Azz, though (and of course, we don't have to believe him), Lennox was originally supposed to survive:



    http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/02/...ries-be-ending



    Maybe you're right, if there are good sources that all these creators said they thought that the marriage should have continued in the New 52 (and not just that they miss it). I remember reading that there was a creators' retreat, shortly before the reboot planning, at which the current creators on the Superman books said the marriage was holding them back. But, who knows? That could have been a misleading paraphrase by editorial. There's also a proposal from 2000 in which Morrison, Waid, Millar and Peyer said that DC needed to end the marriage in order to "restore the Clark/Lois/Superman triangle." ( http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.c...h-concept.html ) (Unless the "Superman 2000 proposal" has been debunked somewhere?)

    In any case, even if you're right that the pairing happened because "higher editorial...saw reboot as chance to realize their childhood dreams," that still doesn't mean that Wonder Woman and Superman were paired because of the lack of a Wonder Woman breakout character. Again, I'm pretty sure DC sees Superman as the more lucrative property, and they're weren't going to mess with his status quo because of a perceived problem with the Wonder Woman books.

    All that being said, of course, I do think that a Wonder Woman breakout character could be nice. Azz's quote about Lennox, above, makes me think it was originally supposed to be him. Maybe he'll come back and "break out" yet. I also agree with those who have said that Strife could be a good breakout character. Maybe even Zola, if having been the vessel of Athena leaves her with powers. She could be funny as a reluctant superhero.
    I suppose technically Lennox did break out ... But I see Strife as the most likely breakout from Azzarello's run. She's already made it into SM/WW so I will see it as no surprise if other books picked her up as a good behind the scenes villain. Unlike Circe she doesn't come across as simply too powerful to mess with some one like the Atom and unlike Cheetah she has motivations beyond hating Diana, she is still the personification of Stife and probably has goals to rule someday. Cassandra is the other possible breakout. I could see it going in one of two ways ... First she stays evil and escapes her imprisonment and goes wreak havoc ... Second she is reformed Ala Paul Von Gunther and becomes a valuable resource to heroes in man's world.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I think any discussion of the fate of Lennox should probably speculate, not only what was lost with him, but what was gained by his loss ..and what might have been. What might have been, with more development? A character created for use in the WW comic that could do for Wonder Woman's popularity, what pairing her with Superman or Batman might do - point fans back to reading WW. While Donna and Cassie were great characters, solidly entertaining and well-rounded, their appaearances in other comics (on hero teams, etc) haven't been able to accomplish that.
    It seems possible that the reason they haven't been able to accomplish that is that it doesn't generally work that way; like someone said earlier, Nightwing probably doesn't sell Batman, or even "point fans back to reading WW" on a large scale. If a Wonder Woman supporting character gets her or his own book, that's great; but I wouldn't count on that generating much in the way of increased readership on Wonder Woman's solo book. Anyway, I think it's generally better to write supporting characters in such a way that they complement the main character and show her off, rather than "pushing" a supporting character because he or she is meant to "break out." Remembering how Lennox seemed to be calling the shots in issues 5 and 6, I guess I can see an argument that he looked like a breakout character; but I'm glad he receded into more of a supporting role starting with 7 (where he's a bit clueless, cut off from "the wind" and Siracca); this may not have been good for his "breakout"potential, but I think it was good for the story and for showcasing Diana. As for his death...one of the reasons Azz and Chiang used "new" or reinvented supported characters, according to what they said in interviews, is that it gave them more freedom to do what they wanted with those characters, much more than if they had been working with established characters. So there could be surprises; people could actually die, etc. I think that if they'd been stuck with the idea that Lennox needed to be a breakout character, they would have have lost that freedom--a loss that probably wouldn't have been good for the storytelling, in my opinion.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    It seems possible that the reason they haven't been able to accomplish that is that it doesn't generally work that way; like someone said earlier, Nightwing probably doesn't sell Batman, or even "point fans back to reading WW" on a large scale. If a Wonder Woman supporting character gets her or his own book, that's great; but I wouldn't count on that generating much in the way of increased readership on Wonder Woman's solo book. Anyway, I think it's generally better to write supporting characters in such a way that they complement the main character and show her off, rather than "pushing" a supporting character because he or she is meant to "break out." Remembering how Lennox seemed to be calling the shots in issues 5 and 6, I guess I can see an argument that he looked like a breakout character; but I'm glad he receded into more of a supporting role starting with 7 (where he's a bit clueless, cut off from "the wind" and Siracca); this may not have been good for his "breakout"potential, but I think it was good for the story and for showcasing Diana. As for his death...one of the reasons Azz and Chiang used "new" or reinvented supported characters, according to what they said in interviews, is that it gave them more freedom to do what they wanted with those characters, much more than if they had been working with established characters. So there could be surprises; people could actually die, etc. I think that if they'd been stuck with the idea that Lennox needed to be a breakout character, they would have have lost that freedom--a loss that probably wouldn't have been good for the storytelling, in my opinion.
    Nightwing is very important to Batman, there is many people who doesn't like Batman but love nightwing/dick grayson. Anyway stephanie brown back put some people to notice batman comics and start to buy eternal. same will happen if cass cain come back;

    strife could eb a potential break out, but her use on smww just to cause problems to the couple is lame. I can't see loki doing it. Strife to break out needs her own matt fraction and kieron gillen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I think any discussion of the fate of Lennox should probably speculate, not only what was lost with him, but what was gained by his loss ..and what might have been. What might have been, with more development? A character created for use in the WW comic that could do for Wonder Woman's popularity, what pairing her with Superman or Batman might do - point fans back to reading WW. While Donna and Cassie were great characters, solidly entertaining and well-rounded, their appaearances in other comics (on hero teams, etc) haven't been able to accomplish that.

    Maybe, it won't be Lennox, ..considering he blowed up pretty good. Maybe, it'll be Steve Trevor [Agent Of S.H.I.E.L.D.] or a character, who hasn't been created yet. It's embarassing that the WW comic has been so artistically bankrupt that it must import characters, created for other comics, to use in WW! [Embarassing!] Who or whatever it is, I think that character should be created expressly for use in the WW comic, ..or we've got Nemesis, Orion and, now, Superman all over again.

    Can't build a solid Wonderverse, outsourcing major characters that have to be checked back into the DCU, elsewhere, like overdue library books! Isn't anyone else, here, tired of that?
    well Nemesis is what Trevor is today. now Trevor has the potential to be a great character, but where he is?
    Last edited by Blacksun; 11-17-2014 at 09:50 AM.

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