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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Great Hera, Carabas! Did you read anything I just wrote?
    Yes. Did you?

    I just said that I think a Wonder Boy or man would be entirely ridiculous. How do you get Steve Trevor in 'a patriotic bathing suit' out of that?
    Exageration or effect.
    How do you get that putting armbands on Lennox, who doesn't look or read anything like Wonder Woman, make him 'Wonder Man'? I just said that I think it's a wacky idea! What do you want from me?!
    Well, that is just the way it is. Put Diana's iconic weaponry on Lennox and have him go bullets and bracelets, and he's effectively Wonder Bloke in everything but name. That's just how comics work. Look at how many fans were calling Harper Row the new Oracle just for beng good with electronics.

    I think Azzarello created Lennox to kill him off for dramatic effect ..and nothing more.
    Well, absolutely. Okay, not just for that, he had a bunch of other roles before he died, but he was undoubtedly created with his death in mind.

    This is something that, in spite of my initial hopes for what could be done with Lennox, that I have accepted and moved on from. In consideration of the dramatic impact that Lennox's death was intended to create (but didn't), I also realized, rather later than you and our other friends here, what an incredibly stupid, pointless and ridiculous character that Lennox had been. Beyond establishing that the New 52 Wonder Woman had demigod siblings in the world, Lennox really brought nothing to the story, was eclipsed and made irrelevant by the arrival of Orion and was never developed to even a tenth of his narrative potential.
    He brought some much needed levity and irreverence.

    He was a waste of time, and I'm glad he's out of the comic.
    He was a great minor character. Not everybody can be A-list, and there is nothing wrong with that.

    And I think you couldn't be more wrong about what corporate ambitions can do for the development of a story and a comic book character. If you really, really believe that, you should burn every comic book you have and put out your eyes with hot pokers! Without corporate ambitions driving the comic book publishing business, most of the classic characters we read about wouldn't have lasted beyond a first appearance. Where do you think Robin, Superboy, Winter Soldier, She-Hulk, the Justice League and the SILVER AGE came from? Some beatniks hanging out in a coffee shop?
    Actually, I firmly believe that if the silver age hadn't happened, and the stranglehold of Marvel and DC and this one genre on the medium had been broken, then maybe comics would be as big in America as they are here and in Japan.

    Corporate desires? Are you kidding me?!
    Hey, you're the one that started going on about the brand.

    I don't think you quite get that a superhero comic, called Wonder Woman, is being written by someone, who has told us, very plainly, that he has no interest in writing a superhero adventure comic ..or how that shapes the writing of a story.
    I do get it and I am perfectly okay with it, and I take Azzarello's words with a huge rock of salt, considering that he's writing the best superhero adventure DC is currently publishing.

  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I think Azzarello created Lennox to kill him off for dramatic effect ..and nothing more.

    This is something that, in spite of my initial hopes for what could be done with Lennox, that I have accepted and moved on from. In consideration of the dramatic impact that Lennox's death was intended to create (but didn't), I also realized, rather later than you and our other friends here, what an incredibly stupid, pointless and ridiculous character that Lennox had been. Beyond establishing that the New 52 Wonder Woman had demigod siblings in the world, Lennox really brought nothing to the story, was eclipsed and made irrelevant by the arrival of Orion and was never developed to even a tenth of his narrative potential.

    He was a waste of time, and I'm glad he's out of the comic.
    No he wasnt. Lennox was supposed to be her big brother who would help her out, not specifically in combat, but in the general journey. Orion was the douchey guy who might have potential to become a love interest. Not her brother the way Lennox was.

    And Lennox, despite his limited fighting abilities did something greater than anyone in the team, he gave his life so that the others would escape and survive. That's what a big brother does and it's commendable. You wanted him to be a superhero that breaks out of the WW book, good for you, that's not what Azz wanted.

    I wish Optimus Prime would transform into a toaster, but that's not the case. That doesnt invalidate him, or Lennox.

  3. #18
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    No he wasnt. Lennox was supposed to be her big brother who would help her out, not specifically in combat, but in the general journey. Orion was the douchey guy who might have potential to become a love interest. Not her brother the way Lennox was.

    And Lennox, despite his limited fighting abilities did something greater than anyone in the team, he gave his life so that the others would escape and survive. That's what a big brother does and it's commendable. You wanted him to be a superhero that breaks out of the WW book, good for you, that's not what Azz wanted.

    I wish Optimus Prime would transform into a toaster, but that's not the case. That doesnt invalidate him, or Lennox.
    The WW comic needs a break-out character that hasn't been borrowed from another comic mythos. Nemesis was mildly popular with some older fans, ..but he's gone and, not associated with WW anymore, cannot drive fans to pick up WW. It's great that Orion is popular, but, he will eventually be called away for use in another, ..and then, where will WW be? WW needs a Huntress, Nightwing or Wolverine - a break-out character, created for use in WW, who can be popular outside of the comic and drive fans back to WW.

    I'm not sure if Steve Trevor's use in JLA and other comics will ultimately succeed in that purpose. Maybe, it will.

    From an editorial perspective, Lennox was a completely wasteful creation, whose presence and subsequent removal from the story made virtually no impact on the story, at all. As for his long-term relevance in the mythos, he has none, ..and seemingly no short term relevance in the current story. Lennox was just a pointless character, who was in the way of better characters, ..like Orion or ZOLA. Were he somewhat more developed, with respect to his background, mission and motivations, he might have been more memorable or endearing. However, because (like Zola), he's virtually undeveloped and barely present in the story, all he ever amounted to was a throw-away character.

    Lennox dies...so what?
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 06-30-2014 at 09:41 AM.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    The WW comic needs a break-out character that hasn't been borrowed from another comic mythos.
    Why?
    No seriously, why does it need that?

  5. #20

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    Nightwing brings sales to Batman? No, it's the other way around.

    The character you are asking for isnt obligatory, and in any case it could Strife. She's the breakout character of this story. Or maybe he or she will come from the next writer. I dont understand why Lennox HAD to be that guy, and to be honest i dont see the potential in him. Better and more distinguished characters have trouble keeping a book, Lennox would surely get cancelled with a few months.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Lennox dies...so what?
    Dies as in "so what". It's a comic book, so he could quite easily be brought back with some duck tape and time to heal. And then "so what" could easily become "Then what."

  7. #22
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Why?
    No seriously, why does it need that?
    Why? Why do you think Wonder Woman has now been paired with Superman?

    Wonder Woman has been romantically paired with Superman, because the WW comic, to date, has had no break-out character that is popular enough to enjoy popularity elsewhere in the DCU, while pointing readers back to WW. So, now, Wondy is reduced to Superman's super-girlfriend? Is that really a better PR/marketing solution, than developing a male character, created for use in the WW comic, branding him with Wonder-iconography and sending him out there to attract new readers?

    Superman's Girlfriend, Wonder Woman? Seriously?

    With his own pair of shock-absorbing, force-field armbands and a significantly higher intelligence quotient - much, much higher - the Rockstar could totally be back in business. He needs armbands or some kind of defense against getting cracked up, like old asphalt - not for the bullets n'bracelets stuff. Why not a defense that brands him, as a 'Wonder'?

    I wouldn't mind a pulpy miniseries, pitting Mr. Sandsmark, in his prime, and Sirracca against Nazis in WWII. I'd pick it up.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 11-16-2014 at 03:56 AM. Reason: stuff
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    I wish Optimus Prime would transform into a toaster, but that's not the case. That doesnt invalidate him, or Lennox.
    It does now, for me

    I thought of him a bit like John Constantine, a coat wearing britt-man of mystery but with a huligan touch and made out of stone.

    Perhaps the two of them could join forces? Either pre WW, John meeting a man with the wind or post WW, essentially putting their "heads" together where Lennox's could sit on John's shoulder mumbling stuff like a drunk voodoo parrot.
    Last edited by borntohula; 11-16-2014 at 04:18 AM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Why? Why do you think Wonder Woman has now been paired with Superman?

    Wonder Woman has been romantically paired with Superman, because the WW comic, to date, has had no break-out character that is popular enough to enjoy popularity elsewhere in the DCU, while pointing readers back to WW.
    I think the reason was likely more Superman-driven; since Superman has been the more lucrative property, it's unlikely tht DC execs agreed to fiddle with his status quo just because WOnder WOman needed a character to link her to the rest of the DCU. If that's really all they were looking for, they probably would have just pushed the "Steve Trevor, Agent of ARGUS" angle a little harder while keeping his together with Diana (and maybe adding some WW iconography to his armor).

    It seems more like some Superman creators were bored (justifiably or not) with his marriage to Lois; publishers at the time of the New 52 were looking for an in-story character development angle that would keep their publicity streak going; and when they looked around for such an angle, they saw that a relationship between the company's biggest, brightest male and female superheroes had been a possibility that had been dangled for decades and would probably stir some excitement.

    As for Lennox...I think he just needed a little more backstory. What exactly happened between him and Cassandra? What other gray-area decisions had he made in the past? How much of a drifter had he been? How unusual was it for him to stick with a group and make selfless decisions? Knowing that might have let us see how much Diana influenced him, and also might have made his final sacrifice even m ore poignant. But it was already pretty poignant. And I liked that soccer team fight song.

    Personally I'd be happy to see him come back. I get that superhero resurrections are overdone, but when it comes to demigods, I find it pretty easy to accept that death might not be permanent. I don't know about bracelets, though; I don't see them as complementing the idea of stone man all that well. If he needs an upgrade, just have him be made of harder rock this time.

    I wouldn't mind a pulpy miniseries, pitting Mr. Sandsmark, in his prime, and Sirracca against Nazis in WWII. I'd pick it up.
    Sounds good to me.
    Last edited by Silvanus; 11-16-2014 at 07:38 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    I think the reason was likely more Superman-driven; since Superman has been the more lucrative property, it's unlikely tht DC execs agreed to fiddle with his status quo just because WOnder WOman needed a character to link her to the rest of the DCU. If that's really all they were looking for, they probably would have just pushed the "Steve Trevor, Agent of ARGUS" angle a little harder while keeping his together with Diana (and maybe adding some WW iconography to his armor).

    It seems more like some Superman creators were bored (justifiably or not) with his marriage to Lois; publishers at the time of the New 52 were looking for an in-story character development angle that would keep their publicity streak going; and when they looked around for such an angle, they saw that a relationship between the company's biggest, brightest male and female superheroes had been a possibility that had been dangled for decades and would probably stir some excitement.

    As for Lennox...I think he just needed a little more backstory. What exactly happened between him and Cassandra? What other gray-area decisions had he made in the past? How much of a drifter had he been? How unusual was it for him to stick with a group and make selfless decisions? Knowing that might have let us see how much Diana influenced him, and also might have made his final sacrifice even m ore poignant. But it was already pretty poignant. And I liked that soccer team fight song.

    Personally I'd be happy to see him come back. I get that superhero resurrections are overdone, but when it comes to demigods, I find it pretty easy to accept that death might not be permanent. I don't know about bracelets, though; I don't see them as complementing the idea of stone man all that well. If he needs an upgrade, just have him be made of harder rock this time.



    Sounds good to me.
    Superman creators weren't bored with Lois and clark, Grant Morrison wanted the marriage to keep going, as Scott Snyder, Tom taylor, even scott lobdell lol, george perez. among others. How some superman writers were bored if some of them was the first time they were writing the character?
    it came from higher editorial that saw reboot as chance to realize their childhood dreams, Lee and eddie berganza.

    Good that WW is big enough to have her own movie and not have to co-star in a superman movie, like the case of black canary that was transformed in a GA support character.
    BC BOP> BC GA
    Mel is right, WW needs a break out character from her own mythos. A character that people like, and that could even have a spin off book. That could be Trevor. A book with Trevor and Lennox working together? I'm down.

    I'm not sure if Steve Trevor's use in JLA and other comics will ultimately succeed in that purpose. Maybe, it will.
    First they need to use Trevor
    Last edited by Blacksun; 11-16-2014 at 10:20 AM.

  11. #26
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    I get why Mel and Carabas and others think Lennox was, in one way or another, created to be killed. If you believe Azz, though (and of course, we don't have to believe him), Lennox was originally supposed to survive:

    Yeah, I think Lennox -- when we first conceived Lennox, he was going to come out of this thing. In a way, it was something like when DC -- [co-publisher Dan DiDio] in particular -- was like, "Give us some more characters. Create something that can live behind this series," while we were working on it, it just made sense dramatically. It was like, "Lennox has to go."
    http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/02/...ries-be-ending

    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    Superman creators weren't bored with Lois and clark, Grant Morrison wanted the marriage to keep going, as Scott Snyder, Tom taylor, even scott lobdell lol, george perez. among others. How some superman writers were bored if some of them was the first time they were writing the character?
    Maybe you're right, if there are good sources that all these creators said they thought that the marriage should have continued in the New 52 (and not just that they miss it). I remember reading that there was a creators' retreat, shortly before the reboot planning, at which the current creators on the Superman books said the marriage was holding them back. But, who knows? That could have been a misleading paraphrase by editorial. There's also a proposal from 2000 in which Morrison, Waid, Millar and Peyer said that DC needed to end the marriage in order to "restore the Clark/Lois/Superman triangle." ( http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.c...h-concept.html ) (Unless the "Superman 2000 proposal" has been debunked somewhere?)

    In any case, even if you're right that the pairing happened because "higher editorial...saw reboot as chance to realize their childhood dreams," that still doesn't mean that Wonder Woman and Superman were paired because of the lack of a Wonder Woman breakout character. Again, I'm pretty sure DC sees Superman as the more lucrative property, and they're weren't going to mess with his status quo because of a perceived problem with the Wonder Woman books.

    All that being said, of course, I do think that a Wonder Woman breakout character could be nice. Azz's quote about Lennox, above, makes me think it was originally supposed to be him. Maybe he'll come back and "break out" yet. I also agree with those who have said that Strife could be a good breakout character. Maybe even Zola, if having been the vessel of Athena leaves her with powers. She could be funny as a reluctant superhero.
    Last edited by Silvanus; 11-16-2014 at 11:30 AM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Why? Why do you think Wonder Woman has now been paired with Superman?

    Wonder Woman has been romantically paired with Superman, because the WW comic, to date, has had no break-out character that is popular enough to enjoy popularity elsewhere in the DCU, while pointing readers back to WW. So, now, Wondy is reduced to Superman's super-girlfriend? Is that really a better PR/marketing solution, than developing a male character, created for use in the WW comic, branding him with Wonder-iconography and sending him out there to attract new readers?

    Superman's Girlfriend, Wonder Woman? Seriously?

    With his own pair of shock-absorbing, force-field armbands and a significantly higher intelligence quotient - much, much higher - the Rockstar could totally be back in business. He needs armbands or some kind of defense against getting cracked up, like old asphalt - not for the bullets n'bracelets stuff. Why not a defense that brands him, as a 'Wonder'?

    I wouldn't mind a pulpy miniseries, pitting Mr. Sandsmark, in his prime, and Sirracca against Nazis in WWII. I'd pick it up.
    I don't know why some fans feel that the WW/SM pairing has been bad for WW! As least for me, when it was announced that WW and SM were hooking-up!! That got me interested in reading her solo comic, I didn't buy it for very long, but that was because I didn't like the dark story or her new supporting cast!! I was extremely turned off by Orion behavior, and the writer wanting too turn around and make the man that sexually harassed WW into her love interest. Those were some of things i disliked about Azz's run! Looking at the sales numbers for WW#34, 35, and sensation comics featuring WW, the SM/WW comic is her best selling comic!! The SM/WW comic has consistently out sold her two solo comics! I don't see how WW being paired with SM has anything to do with her needing a break-out character?? I do admit the pairing did draw my interest and I did start reading WW solo! But it was the dark storyline and the new supporting cast that was the reason i dropped WW solo title!
    Last edited by chlj1; 11-16-2014 at 12:25 PM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    I get why Mel and Carabas and others think Lennox was, in one way or another, created to be killed. If you believe Azz, though (and of course, we don't have to believe him), Lennox was originally supposed to survive:



    http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/02/...ries-be-ending



    Maybe you're right, if there are good sources that all these creators said they thought that the marriage should have continued in the New 52 (and not just that they miss it). I remember reading that there was a creators' retreat, shortly before the reboot planning, at which the current creators on the Superman books said the marriage was holding them back. But, who knows? That could have been a misleading paraphrase by editorial. There's also a proposal from 2000 in which Morrison, Waid, Millar and Peyer said that DC needed to end the marriage in order to "restore the Clark/Lois/Superman triangle." ( http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.c...h-concept.html ) (Unless the "Superman 2000 proposal" has been debunked somewhere?)

    In any case, even if you're right that the pairing happened because "higher editorial...saw reboot as chance to realize their childhood dreams," that still doesn't mean that Wonder Woman and Superman were paired because of the lack of a Wonder Woman breakout character. Again, I'm pretty sure DC sees Superman as the more lucrative property, and they're weren't going to mess with his status quo because of a perceived problem with the Wonder Woman books.

    All that being said, of course, I do think that a Wonder Woman breakout character could be nice. Azz's quote about Lennox, above, makes me think it was originally supposed to be him. Maybe he'll come back and "break out" yet. I also agree with those who have said that Strife could be a good breakout character. Maybe even Zola, if having been the vessel of Athena leaves her with powers. She could be funny as a reluctant superhero.
    I would like to know how marriage was holding superman back for creators when they barely did something with the marriage. in 2010 JMS was ignoring it like it was the demon.
    I don't know about superman 2000 is tru or not but the pitch looks dumb. I expect much more toughtful writing from morrison/waid/millar. Even if it's true the marriage dissolvement by the trio, they were still involved on making lois/clark/superman not ww/superman. One thing is end the marriage another is hook up superman/ww.

    it was higher editorial, azz was against it and he was completely ignored. Break out character may not be the reason I don't think it is) but it helped a lot make smww happen;

  14. #29
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    There's also a proposal from 2000 in which Morrison, Waid, Millar and Peyer said that DC needed to end the marriage in order to "restore the Clark/Lois/Superman triangle." ( http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.c...h-concept.html ) (Unless the "Superman 2000 proposal" has been debunked somewhere?)
    Nope, this pitch was quite real. It was nixed for the painfully lame Loeb/McGuinness run to add insult to injury.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    I would like to know how marriage was holding superman back for creators when they barely did something with the marriage. in 2010 JMS was ignoring it like it was the demon.
    Well, if they ignoring it, that tells me it's probably true that they didn't like it very much. They could have felt it was holding them back in the sense that they weren't able to explore other relationships or to use the "Superman/Clark/Lois triangle" in the way it had been used before the marriage. I don't have a strong feeling about it personally.

    it was higher editorial, azz was against it and he was completely ignored. Break out character may not be the reason I don't think it is) but it helped a lot make smww happen;
    Azz was against it, yes, that's true. (And I'm glad he kept it out of his book.) But that doesn't mean that some past or current Superman creators weren't for it. Of course, editors had to make the decision, but whether creators played a role in prompting the decision, I'm not sure.

    Even if it's true the marriage dissolvement by the trio, they were still involved on making lois/clark/superman not ww/superman.
    They were proposing "restoring the Clark/Lois/ Superman triangle" in 2000, that's true; but I don't know what their opinions were about that when the New 52 started.

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