On the subject of retcons by comic companies

[Nicoclaws]

I'd like to point out that Jean not being Phoenix WAS, as you put it, poo-poo'd at the time (heck, it still is).

But that is a matter of opinion on each particular retcons, not toward retcons in general (still, I'm missing the OP's point I think.).
Whether you agree or like any retcon is up to you (and the writers, arguably).
(and once again, Iceman coming out didn't come more "out of left field" as any real coming out. Period. Stop beating that dead horse)

[blanchett]

I wouldn't call Polaris' paternity good, because it makes every single last person that's ever been around her an idiot.

Maybe they just being polite about it. Like the fashion club in Daria. Personally I am for retcons if they add opportunities for characters like Iceman being gay or Polaris being Magneto's daughter. I don't like retcons that just take things that I find compelling away from characters like the Maximoff. I don't understand the reaction to retcons like Captain America when it's clearly clearly going to be reversed.

[DDD]

I think on the topic of Iceman, there is just a huge difference of opinion between the folks who think "there was heavy subtext and innuendo screaming Iceman was always gay" and people who genuinely never "picked up on" any of that (assuming it even intentionally was written in at all)

That's why I think it was too abrupt. It was clear for some... who have been reading for decades. If someone did not pick up on it or they've been reading for a few years, then they all surely were left confused by the change. But the end result is still good.

[ZNOP]

That's why I think it was too abrupt. It was clear for some... who have been reading for decades. If someone did not pick up on it or they've been reading for a few years, then they all surely were left confused by the change. But the end result is still good.

And, what about those of us you have read the X-Men since issue #1 (and every X-Title that subsequently came after) -- and, never picked up any subtext or innuendo until it was actually reviled in ANXM #40?

[donpricetag]

Retcons should be used to fix continuity and logic problems... not function as a means to change a fundamental aspect of a character or a characters background to suit the needs/wants of the current writer/regime. It's just lazy and unimaginative at that point. The only thing that separates it from fan-fiction is the fact that it's supported by the company and actually printed.

[DDM]

And, what about those of us you have read the X-Men since issue #1 (and every X-Title that subsequently came after) -- and, never picked up any subtext or innuendo until it was actually reviled in ANXM #40?

I'd say those people are probably lying. Even if someone were to lack the arcane gift of basic reading comprehension and really did go decades without picking up on the many many hints to Iceman's hidden sexuality, they'd have certainly had it brought to their attention if they'd participated on message boards, read much criticism or even happened to watch a random episode of Family Guy over the years. This should've come as a surprise to literally no long time X-Readers.

[ZNOP]

I'd say those people are probably lying. Even if someone were to lack the arcane gift of basic reading comprehension and really did go decades without picking up on the many many hints to Iceman's hidden sexuality, they'd have certainly had it brought to their attention if they'd participated on message boards, read much criticism or even happened to watch a random episode of Family Guy over the years. This should've come as a surprise to literally no long time X-Readers.

Well, I can honestly say I saw that episode of Family Guy and thought it was funny -- but, aside from that; during my decades of reading X-Men the thought of Bobby being gay never crossed my mind -- until the topic was brought up here originally as a hypothesis until said topic reached the melting point with the release of ANXM #40.

[DDD]

And, what about those of us you have read the X-Men since issue #1 (and every X-Title that subsequently came after) -- and, never picked up any subtext or innuendo until it was actually reviled in ANXM #40?

Many things I have no real life or social experience with, escape my grasp all the time. I am certain someone from a different background, can or cannot pick up different things from a story than I can.

[Wiccan615]

Retcons are successful if they perform a useful function in terms of making a more consistent fictional universe or adding some kind of interesting complexity (such as elaborations upon the nature of the Phoenix Force, or the way Mr Sinister guided various mutants over time)

Retcons are poo-poo'd if they seemingly "come out of left field" (Captain American always working for HYDRA, Iceman always having been gay) or if the motivation behind them seems obviously commercial (as in the case of de-mutantized Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver)

Except even that is subjective. What you may view as "poo poo'd" is what some people view as adding complexity, realism and consistency to a character. And what the "motivation" is, is also subjective. In some cases like (QS and SW) it is obviously just done to shit on Fox. Others may be done because they are stories the writers actually want to tell. There is no conclusive way to distinguish which is which in every case.

There is no objective way to "write a good retcon." Or story. It's your opinion vs someone else's.

Also, as for the whole thing with Iceman being written as closeted beforehand or not, who cares? That doesn't change the fact that it's a retcon and tells a story that's true to what people go through. That's the whole point. He isn't even the first character to have retconned sexuality. And the fact that there are such mixed reactions ("he screamed gay along" vs "I never ever saw him that way") is funnily enough, true to the reactions many people get after coming our irl, especially if they come out later in life.

[Wiccan615]

Retcons should be used to fix continuity and logic problems... not function as a means to change a fundamental aspect of a character or a characters background to suit the needs/wants of the current writer/regime. It's just lazy and unimaginative at that point. The only thing that separates it from fan-fiction is the fact that it's supported by the company and actually printed.

There is no official handbook on how retcons "should" be written, it's just your opinion vs others. And some people might have different ideas on what traits are fundamental to a character. What's lazy and unimaginative to you might be realism and consistency to others, or vice versa if you have the latter opinion.

[joemagnum611]

Captain America appears to be an agent of Hydra. There's nothing in the story that suggests that he's always ben an agent. It's only been 1 issue give it time to develop and let them tell the story before you jump to conclussions

[donpricetag]

There is no official handbook on how retcons "should" be written, it's just your opinion vs others. And some people might have different ideas on what traits are fundamental to a character. What's lazy and unimaginative to you might be realism and consistency to others, or vice versa if you have the latter opinion.

Thanks. Pretty sure that this is obviously my opinion. Good job pointing that out.

[Wiccan615]

Thanks. Pretty sure that this is obviously my opinion. Good job pointing that out.

Did I say it wasn't obviously your opinion? You claimed how you think retcons should be done and I was responding to it.

And you're welcome

[ZNOP]

Captain America appears to be an agent of Hydra. There's nothing in the story that suggests that he's always ben an agent. It's only been 1 issue give it time to develop and let them tell the story before you jump to conclussions

Thanks. Pretty sure that this is obviously my opinion. Good job pointing that out.

What I find odd about Steve Rogers having always being a Hydra agent is the fact that his in-story origin states that he was born in 1920 to poor Irish immigrant parents, (Sarah and Joseph Rogers) grew up a frail youth during the Great Depression, tried to enlist in the Army during the beginning of WWII but was rejected as 4-F because of his frailty -- ironically, in 1941 General Phillips offered Steve the opportunity to take part in "Operation Rebirth" -- he became Captain America and the rest is history. So, unless at some point after his transformation he was captured and brainwashed into becoming a undercover Hydra agent by the Nazis I can't see it

[donpricetag]

Did I say it wasn't obviously your opinion? You claimed how you think retcons should be done and I was responding to it.

And you're welcome

I "claimed how I think"? I suppose that's close enough. Gold star!

But seriously. It's a message board. Unless debating actual facts, I would assume everyone's comment on here is an opinion. Just don't see why you quoted me. However, what I consider to be good, someone may consider to be horrible. But that's a matter of taste.