On the subject of retcons by comic companies

[Wiccan615]

I "claimed how I think"? I suppose that's close enough. Gold star!

Yes! And I responded to it with my own dialogue! Because that's what people do on forums! *accepts gold star*

EDIT: just read your edit, I agree. It's just important to look at things from different perspectives which is why i responded with my own. Also, on the Internet and especially here people often blur the lines between their opinion and facts (not you specifically but just general commentary on some posters and how some ideas get perpetuated and others dismissed as a result)

[Beaubier]

I'll never forgive the Magneto family retcon and I'll remain salty about it until it is undone.

I don't really care about Iceman being gay although it could have been executed a lot better, and I kind of wish they had made him bi instead. But eh. We'll see what they actually end up doing with it. They made a big hullabaloo about Northstar getting married but we've rarely ever seen his husband since.

I really don't like retcons that are obvious stunts or just trying to make the comics have more synergy with the movies.

I do like retcons that are good plot twists and that add to a character. I can't think of any recent retcons that meet that criteria, though.

[CoCoBandz]

I'll never forgive the Magneto family retcon and I'll remain salty about it until it is undone.

I don't really care about Iceman being gay although it could have been executed a lot better, and I kind of wish they had made him bi instead. But eh. We'll see what they actually end up doing with it. They made a big hullabaloo about Northstar getting married but we've rarely ever seen his husband since.

I really don't like retcons that are obvious stunts or just trying to make the comics have more synergy with the movies.

I do like retcons that are good plot twists and that add to a character.

Worst of all is it led to nothing. Pietro is still part of a book that's basically an X-Book in disguise and with Magnus' old flame no less. Could have gotten us some real drama.

For me with Bobby it wasn't so much as them outing him, but outing him as fully gay and not bi like you said. I mean clearly he was attracted to females so it's just weird now. . .

It was done in such a hamfisted way that I coudln't even bring myself to care after long. Have they even attempted to go anywhere else with it minus UXM600 and the beginning of Extra? I haven't been getting Extra.

I could do with some more Northstar tbh and you're right Kyle is virtually nonexistent anymore. . .

I can't think of any recent retcons that meet that criteria, though.

Alas I'm the only person in the entire world who thinks the Steve Rogers retcon was pretty. . . .good.

[Sundowhn]

And even when people start these kinds of threads and insist that they're not meant to simply complain about Iceman being gay, complaining about him being gay inevitably becomes the focus of the thread anyway.

Isn't that kind of what you're doing in this post, by complaining about the perceived complainers?

Regardless of it being a retcon (done poorly or done well, doesn't matter), it's put the character under a "protected" status. He'll not get shoved into limbo or be in the background any time soon, so fans should be thankful for that much.

On topic, I agree that retcons can be a sloppy form of story-telling. They're all too common in a platform like comics, where it's difficult to go in depth into characterization, at times. To do justice to a story, especially a big one, requires more than a few pages in a single issue. For team books, that can be hard to pull off. Look at Cyclops' character development over the years. It was done very well, but at the expense of many other characters on the team. Was it worth it? For Cyclops fans, sure, for everyone else, not so much. It's happened with Jean and with Wolverine over the years, too.

Continuing with the Iceman example, it seems like at the very least a story arc would've been in order, if not a mini series. But the writer was a lazy about it, in my opinion.

I'm not saying that retcons -- in the form of changing the status quo for a character -- aren't needed at times. In the comic genre, it's the characters that last through the years. The biggest sellers in the X-Men world have been around since the 60's and 70's. There are only so many stories that can be written without shaking things up every now and again. What I look at is how the retcon comes about: a)how much foundation there is for it, as well as b) the execution of the story.

[Nicoclaws]

For me with Bobby it wasn't so much as them outing him, but outing him as fully gay and not bi like you said. I mean clearly he was attracted to females so it's just weird now. . .

It was done in such a hamfisted way that I coudln't even bring myself to care after long. Have they even attempted to go anywhere else with it minus UXM600 and the beginning of Extra? I haven't been getting Extra.

Being "fully gay" doesn't mean you were not "clearly" attracted to women before realizing you are. Once again, married men with children come out as gay later in their life.

It was adressed once or twice. He talked to Anole about it and he made a big speech to Storm about the necessity of starting all over again and reinventing oneself. In ANXM, young Bobby awkwardly tried to hit on some kid.

[DDM]

Regardless of it being a retcon (done poorly or done well, doesn't matter), it's put the character under a "protected" status. He'll not get shoved into limbo or be in the background any time soon, so fans should be thankful for that much.

From what cross-time universe did you emerge from where GLBTQIA are a "protected" class?

Tell that to Karma, Northstar, Daken, Bling!, etc.

[Anduinel]

I could do with some more Northstar tbh and you're right Kyle is virtually nonexistent anymore. . .

Ditto. Outside of a What-If during Secret Wars, Kyle hasn't even had a speaking role since Liu's Astonishing run wrapped up.

[Nicoclaws]

I find it quite telling that the OP, who seems to be against Iceman's coming out because it's out of character and lazily written seems happy with Sabretooth being completely out of character because of the most contrived plot of the last years.

[donpricetag]

As for the Iceman retcon... It ranks among the worst for me. It was just so sloppy and "oh well". But hey, it was written by a straight, upper middle class (I'm assuming its no lower than that being one of Disney's/Marvel's "top" comic book writers), white, male (no one should be offended, it is what it is); It's kind of hit or miss. Going to hit due to his ability to create and write, or fail because he just doesnt get "it" but thinks he does. Why would he be expected to understand the issue, and surprise people when he doesn't?

[Tazirai]

Retcons are successful if they perform a useful function in terms of making a more consistent fictional universe or adding some kind of interesting complexity (such as elaborations upon the nature of the Phoenix Force, or the way Mr Sinister guided various mutants over time)

Retcons are poo-poo'd if they seemingly "come out of left field" (Captain American always working for HYDRA, Iceman always having been gay) or if the motivation behind them seems obviously commercial (as in the case of de-mutantized Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver)

I don't mind when retcons make sense. I mean I retcon some of the characters I write at times. Because something new comes a long, and I realize that it makes sense to alter or change it. Retcons are a 50/50 thing. I don't believe Cap is Hydra at all. It's a storyline i'll wait to see play out.

As a Psylocke fan I'll post two of her failed attempts at being retconned. Most of it comes from the writers not knowing or learning the character before writing her. It used to be characters had bibliophiles that writers and artists had to refer to. I don't think they do that anymore.

1) Psylocke was this high kicking badass agent of STRIKE. They even had pictures of her doing high jumps and kicks in combat fatigues. Sad part is Claremont was the one who did this in Extreme X-men. At BEST Psylocke was a barely combat trained remote psychic operative. In her first classic match up with Sabertooth, she gets her ass handed to her after picking up a knife, and not knowing how to use it properly. She constantly tried to be a physical warrior when she wasn't.
If she was already a badass, changing her into a Ninja made even less sense. Because she would basically have been the Psychic equivalent of Natasha Romanov.
This was also written by Claremont. The problem was Claremont had a hand in writing Elizabeth, but it was Alan Moore that created the personality of who Psylocke would be.


2) Psylocke meets angel at the hellfire club in the past. Yet during Inferno they don't know each other at all. They later on they "meet again" and start dating.

3) Humphries tried two things that failed. One was trying to say Elizabeth gained her Psychic powers at 16, which she didn't. She was a latent Telepath getting her Clairvoyance at 26 and Telepath at 28. He also failed by trying to say that Brian was already Captain Britain when she was 16 living as a model in New York.
She didn't become a model until in her late 20's and stopped being a pilot. Brian also is Elizabeths twin, not her older brother. They had both graduated college by the time he became Captain Britain.

4) He tried to turn an already hypersexualized character even more hypersexualized by trying to make her gay/bi. Which was never the case. Luckily it's only happened once, and with her boyfriend who got split into 3 people. Humphries chose the female because he probably thought it was edgy or cool. Luckily other writers ignored that.

Some of Psylockes retcons that make sense work. But like her body alteration most do not. Why make a super combat psychic, into a Asian combat psychic, because reasons?

[DDD]

I find it quite telling that the OP, who seems to be against Iceman's coming out because it's out of character and lazily written seems happy with Sabretooth being completely out of character because of the most contrived plot of the last years.

Not me, Sabertooth replacing Wolverine is awful. Even when the maestro Claremont, did it.

[DDD]

LGBT are NOT a protected class. In most states, an employer can be stuck with some religious zealot employee becoming a walking billboard for their lifestyle in their store. But they can fire and even bully a man for being too effeminate and the law will be on the employer's side.

By the way, male is a gender and white is color which is part of some race. So basically, anyone and everyone is protected except LGBTQIAetc.

[ZNOP]

Regardless of it being a retcon (done poorly or done well, doesn't matter), it's put the character under a "protected" status. He'll not get shoved into limbo or be in the background any time soon, so fans should be thankful for that much.

From what cross-time universe did you emerge from where GLBTQIA are a "protected" class?

Tell that to Karma, Northstar, Daken, Bling!, etc.

Aside from being extremely capable of defending themselves by virtue of having various mutant abilities -- what is meant by a "protected class" and protected by whom? Tell me true (since king Cyclops decreed "self imposed" exile on his lemming-esk subjects) who among the mutant population has placed Karma, Northstar, Daken, and Bling in a position which requires protection?

[DDD]

They are characteristics or traits that people cannot be discriminated against. Basically, you cannot discriminate against anyone in the USA for anything except: credit history, criminal records or being LGBT.

[MasterOfMagnetism]

Regardless of it being a retcon (done poorly or done well, doesn't matter), it's put the character under a "protected" status. He'll not get shoved into limbo or be in the background any time soon, so fans should be thankful for that much.

Being gay doesn't give a character "protected" status, plenty of gay characters have been killed off or faded into obscurity. Even now that Iceman has become openly gay, Northstar (the X-Men's previous number 1 gay character and the first ever openly gay superhero no less) is now nowhere to be seen. Being gay didn't "protect" Northstar from fading into (metaphorical) limbo.