How good is Nu52 Cassandra Cain?

[Godzilla2099]

I tried giving Batman Eternal a shot. It had a strong start, but I lost interest shortly after the Jason Todd Fight. She had strong promise but after glancing a few issues, she appears significantly weaker than her pre-flashpoint version.

I also rolled my eyes watching Batwoman training her.

My question is how strong/fast/overall good is she compared to the others?

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

In her first appearance she /was/ toying with them. Did that not get better?

[Miracleman]

How would she fare against Karnak?

[Ambaryerno]

TBH I always thought Cain could stand a nerf to begin with.

[Sharpandpointies]

I tried giving Batman Eternal a shot. It had a strong start, but I lost interest shortly after the Jason Todd Fight. She had strong promise but after glancing a few issues, she appears significantly weaker than her pre-flashpoint version.

I also rolled my eyes watching Batwoman training her.

My question is how strong/fast/overall good is she compared to the others?

Presentation-wise, we have Batman saying she's the most dangerous fighter on the planet.

Reality/feats-wise, she's not especially better than the others. The others - by narration - seem to have some skill at body-reading themselves, her own body-reading is basically a quirk now than anything hugely special (it gets narrated but doesn't seem to do much for her), she wins-some, loses-some, she toys with Grayson then Grayson beats people off-panel who give her a hard time (this roller coaster ride of 'who is better than who?' seems par for the course for NuDC), she gets clonked on the back of the head mid-fight by people the group is fighting in crowds, etc.

Basically, DC seems to have levelled the playing field with the upper-tier martial artists (except Batman, who will always have better feats). Which is great for the Tim Drakes, the Dick Graysons, and the Jason Todds, because they have other stuff they can do. Cass? Not so much - once again, she's socially inept and not exactly a fantastic detective, while having her fighting skills diluted.

Character, also. It seems lacking and is a trifle bland.

Haven't read anything past B&RE but DC #1, so maybe that changes.

[Sharpandpointies]

How would she fare against Karnak?

Assuming his bullet-time feat stands, he crushes her.

[Nik Hasta]

She even still a bullet timer these days?

[Sharpandpointies]

She even still a bullet timer these days?

Nope. Nor does she have the kind of situational awareness she used to have, at all.

Really, everyone is sort of lumped in this big cluster of 'Sometimes this person looks better, sometimes that person looks better, person X beats person Y beats person Z beats person X who then loses to person Y to confuse the issue further, lots of talk about this guy being better, that person being deadlier, this person being dirtier, Batman is probably better anyway'.

Basically, it's Gail Simone's 'On any given day, any of the people close to the top could beat anyone else'.

[Ambaryerno]

The others - by narration - seem to have some skill at body-reading themselves, her own body-reading is basically a quirk now than anything hugely special

As a practitioner (Western Martial Arts) I've always hated her body-reading skill. It's the invention of someone with NO CLUE WHATSOEVER how martial arts actually work. EVERY MARTIAL ARTIST EVER reads their opponent's body language. *I* can read my opponent's intentions when I'm fencing, and I didn't need to be deprived of verbal communications to "rewire my language centers" to be able to do so. The fact that Cain's was memetically elevated to the point of outright PRECOGNITION meaning no opponent ever could EVER surprise her with things like, you know, a FEINT, just made it worse.

If writers these days have recognized just how ridiculous it was in the first place and started to spread it to other martial-artists in the DC-verse I APPLAUD that decision. Sure, Cass can be a little better at it than others, but it should NEVER have been made out to be a special and unique ability that no one else had.

Nope.

Another one I'm not sorry to see go. As an explicitly non-powered individual that should have never been a thing.

[Sharpandpointies]

To take this further, they started off nicely with her. I get they didn't want her bullet-timing, but if her big skill is combat - whereas other Batpeople have all kinds of other skills - she ought to be tops in that. And that's kind of how she was introduced. First scene we see her, she clearly beats all heck out of Grayson with him realizing that her attacks are all kill-shots - attacks that are landing, note - but she's pulling them to make them non-lethal. The implication here is that had she wanted him dead, he'd be dead.

Then after that?

Whether or not she's toying with him or trying to communicate, they show Jason getting the upper hand on her (fight broken up by Grayson). They have her getting whaled on by Orphan (ugh...NuDavid Cain who has none of Old Cain's semi-redeeming features/hilarity, instead being this faceless, spineless robot-thing) who then goes on to getting his ass handed to him by Grayson...off-screen, because Grayson got serious (I feel even the writers couldn't sell this to themselves, hence putting the fight off-screen), they have her getting bonked on the back of the head by one of a group the Batfamily is beating up in large numbers and saved by Bluebird (there are other ways to form a bond between characters, writer), they have Jason Todd of all people claiming to body-read her while she's body-reading him and starting to adjust to her fighting, etc, etc.

Any of these would be fine, but the general picture it paints is 'nothing special, really'.

[Sharpandpointies]

As a practitioner (Western Martial Arts) I've always hated her body-reading skill. It's the invention of someone with NO CLUE WHATSOEVER how martial arts actually work. EVERY MARTIAL ARTIST EVER reads their opponent's body language. *I* can read my opponent's intentions when I'm fencing, and I didn't need to be deprived of verbal communications to "rewire my language centers" to be able to do so. The fact that Cain's was memetically elevated to the point of outright PRECOGNITION meaning no opponent ever could EVER surprise her with things like, you know, a FEINT, just made it worse.

I believe this has been discussed before. In this case, it's not that the writer doesn't understand how fighting works (which is probable as well, but not in this case), but you don't seem to understand how Cassandra Cain's body-reading used to work.

You can read your opponent to some level. Sure. So can I. So can Batman, Tim Drake, pro boxers, etc.

You cannot read your opponent like Cassandra Cain does. It's specific to her description that she gets exact information off of stuff like 'twitch of the eyebrows'. Not 'he's going to attack' but 'exactly where and how he will attack'. Batman notes that with a single glance, she knows exactly what everyone in a room is going to do before they even know what they're going to do. She is shown studying a crowd of people and getting actual thought-bubbles over their heads showing generally what everyone is thinking. She watches two people having a conversation from a distance, then explains to Batman not just what they're feeling, but the context behind it. She spots shapeshifters just by glancing at them. Someone attacks her using complicated fighting techniques and she replicates them perfectly, immediately. She picks up all of the basics of a complete fighting system from Batman in five minutes, sufficient enough to fool an expert in that system into thinking she has been practicing that style for a long time.

She didn't know/understand English until a Telepath rewired her brain, having a vocabulary of a half-dozen words, no more. That's not 'she understands English, she just can't speak it'. It's explicitly noted and shown that she doesn't COMPREHEND English. Instead, she reads people's bodies and understands complex instructions based solely off of that. It is noted as being her 'primary language'.

As a practitioner of various forms of martial arts (the practice of which has included full-contact sparring and weapons-work) AND someone who has read all of Cass' appearances in detail, I'll note that there's no comparison. To say that it's equitable to what you can do, what any trained fighter can do, even to what people like Batman can do, is like saying that the works of Shakespeare are comparable to a four-year old's "I luv yu dady" scribbled on a drawing. They're both writing, right? And yet one is not nearly the other.

If writers these days have recognized just how ridiculous it was in the first place and started to spread it to other martial-artists in the DC-verse I APPLAUD that decision. Sure, Cass can be a little better at it than others, but it should NEVER have been made out to be a special and unique ability that no one else had.

And why not? Other characters - non-super-powered characters - have skills developed to a ridiculous extent past the capacity for even other comic book characters to achieve. Captain America's shield throws, insane as they are, pale in comparison to Bullseye's throwing ability. Taskmaster has a non-mutant/magic ability to perfectly copy anything he sees.

Another one I'm not sorry to see go. As an explicitly non-powered individual that should have never been a thing.

Similarly other non-powered characters, I suppose? Shang Chi, Bullseye, Taskmaster...heck, Batman does all kinds of stuff impossible by real-world standpoint.

Edit: let's throw Daredevil and Elektra on while I'm running with this. Or heck, anyone who uses comic book pressure point strikes.

[Sharpandpointies]

For myself, I'm totally cool with people not liking a character. Everyone has personal reason why they like or don't like, and for someone else to say 'no, you're wrong, you must like/dislike this character because XYZ' is remarkably obtuse and rude.

I just don't tend to understand the arguments of 'they shouldn't have this ability because this is not how it works in the real world' (when there are tons of things at least as outlandish in non-powered characters in fiction), or 'anyone should be able to do it' (when the ability is being downplayed into something it isn't).

But then, we've done this dance before.

[Beadle]

With the things that, just by way of example, Magneto has done justified simply by his shouting "MAGNETS!!", or the ludicrous crap Bullseye has pulled off, there's really no point in screaming "BUT THAT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!!" with comics stuff.

Down that road lies only madness.

[Nik Hasta]

Nope. Nor does she have the kind of situational awareness she used to have, at all.

Really, everyone is sort of lumped in this big cluster of 'Sometimes this person looks better, sometimes that person looks better, person X beats person Y beats person Z beats person X who then loses to person Y to confuse the issue further, lots of talk about this guy being better, that person being deadlier, this person being dirtier, Batman is probably better anyway'.

Basically, it's Gail Simone's 'On any given day, any of the people close to the top could beat anyone else'.

Shame, nerfing characters to suit a narrative is always annoying.

Well, it is a reboot so whatever.

I'd just like for Shiva to be able to consistently whip Batman in a straight fight and for Cassie to be her equal.

Bullet dodging I wouldn't mind but I just don't but Batman being as good as combat monsters like Cassie and Shiva while still being the omnicompetant detective polymath and maintaining a secret identity guy that he is.

Buff Cassie and Shiva!

[Ambaryerno]

You cannot read your opponent like Cassandra Cain does. It's specific to her description that she gets exact information off of stuff like 'twitch of the eyebrows'. Not 'he's going to attack' but 'exactly where and how he will attack'. Batman notes that with a single glance, she knows exactly what everyone in a room is going to do before they even know what they're going to do. She is shown studying a crowd of people and getting actual thought-bubbles over their heads showing generally what everyone is thinking.

This is WHY I find it problematic: Her "body reading" is being elevated to outright telepathy. Comics STILL have a suspension of disbelief, and Cass (and by extension, frankly, the entire Bat Family) strains it to the breaking point.

And why not? Other characters - non-super-powered characters - have skills developed to a ridiculous extent past the capacity for even other comic book characters to achieve. Captain America's shield throws, insane as they are, pale in comparison to Bullseye's throwing ability. Taskmaster has a non-mutant/magic ability to perfectly copy anything he sees.

Taskmaster's abilities are non-mutant or magical, but they ARE explicitly superhuman as a result of direct enhancement. Daredevil is ALSO enhanced and not an ostensibly baseline human, for that matter. Shang-Chi and Bullseye I'll grant you (Bullseye does have an adamantium skeleton, but that's irrelevant to his other abilities). However I don't read much of either of those characters.