How good is Nu52 Cassandra Cain?

[Guy1]

MODERATOR

Having reviewed the thread and previous threads, I have come to a decision.
MidTierHero and Ambaryerno, you are both hereby banned from discussing the Cassandra Cain character in Rumbles or participating in threads relating to the character due to both of you showing bias against the character and repeated bashing.
Do not post on this thread again.

I will now re-open the thread for others who wish to discuss the character in a fair manner. Please be polite and respect the rules here.
Thank you.

[Guy1]

as has been said before on numerous other threads: you can't expect realism from fictional medium.

most of the cast from the "grappler baki" series comes to mind. most of the top dog fighters there are "un-enhanced" fighters and yet they do **** that no real world fighter could even dare to replicate.

[Guy1]

And now, a Classic Cass Moment.

[Primetime Harder]

Either those boxes are the strongest ones I've ever seen, or...

[moonknight11]

TBH its not like Cass needs the ridiculous body reading to ream any CBPH. Her speed is more than enough.

[The Dork Knight]

She had an actual thing where her defence was **** without her body reading such that Batman could land hits on her and whatnot . So in a fight she'd better pray that she can take out the CBPH quick without giving him (or her) a chance to respond at all, which , given their endurance stats ...is 50/50 at best .

[Sharpandpointies]

She had an actual thing where her defence was **** without her body reading such that Batman could land hits on her and whatnot . So in a fight she'd better pray that she can take out the CBPH quick without giving him (or her) a chance to respond at all, which , given their endurance stats ...is 50/50 at best .

Which is what blitz-comic book pressure point strikes or blitzing strikes to vital areas are for.

Anyway, there's this thing where she does fine later on against things she can't read, so it's possible that Bruce's attempt at teaching her to fight without using her Body-Reading sunk in somewhat.

But that's Old School Cass.

Nu52? Not really the same.

[The Dork Knight]

Which is what blitz-comic book pressure point strikes or blitzing strikes to vital areas are for.

Anyway, there's this thing where she does fine later on against things she can't read, so it's possible that Bruce's attempt at teaching her to fight without using her Body-Reading sunk in somewhat.

Umm no it didn't . That's the point of the story . Bruce went to Cain and asked him how he did it . Even after watching all those videos she was getting hammered by Bruce

Whom did she do it against without the body reading ? Were they Bruce level fighters ?

If not that just contradicts the original story , unless she received some further non body reading training later

[The Dork Knight]

Also there's a 100 ft starting distance where the CBPH gets to move around to confuse her before it gets to close quarters . And peak humans can get impaled and keep fighting so sorry not buying them going down to a single pressure point when the other fighter specifically has trouble reading movements without body reading

[Sharpandpointies]

Umm no it didn't . That's the point of the story . Bruce went to Cain and asked him how he did it . Even after watching all those videos she was getting hammered by Bruce

Whom did she do it against without the body reading ? Were they Bruce level fighters ?

If not that just contradicts the original story , unless she received some further non body reading training later

I'll need to look them up. There's stuff against robots, that kind of thing.

Also there's a 100 ft starting distance where the CBPH gets to move around to confuse her before it gets to close quarters . And peak humans can get impaled and keep fighting so sorry not buying them going down to a single pressure point when the other fighter specifically has trouble reading movements without body reading

Pressure points specifically bypass that kind of durability and cause immediate impairment or worse (given we've argued Batman doing the exact same thing to people who wouldn't be taken out by a single punch by him). And if she's fast enough to blitz, she's fast enough to land her strikes first. In which case, they start off with at least impairment. Though I'll give you the 100' starting distance, thrown stuff, etc. If she's in her 'no can defend' sort of thing, then yeah, she's screwed against that.

Or are we going to go the route of 'no, pressure points can be ignored if you're just tough enough' (not durable, but tough enough)? Because that's going to take Rumbles to some interestingly different places for everyone who commonly uses pressure points in Rumbles. Including Batman.

[The Dork Knight]

No I'm not arguing because they are "tough enough" they'll ignore pressure points . I'm arguing that they have higher pain tolerance . Not durability . Like how the Punisher can keep fighting after Daredevil freezes his arm . Not because he's more durable , he just has a higher pain ceiling.

Which is why we rarely see one skilled fighter going down to another via pressure point jabs

In case of free shots the other person can take them out sure but if they are actively resisting and bracing themselves , they should be able to keep trucking ...after just one or two blows

Edit: The pressure points can't be "ignored" but rather,tolerated. Impaired sure, just not one hit KOd

[Sharpandpointies]

No I'm not arguing because they are "tough enough" they'll ignore pressure points . I'm arguing that they have higher pain tolerance . Not durability . Like how the Punisher can keep fighting after Daredevil freezes his arm . Not because he's more durable , he just has a higher pain ceiling.

That point being because it stopped his arm. Not him.

Contrary to that, Matt has poked people with superhuman durability/toughness in the chest and flat-out dropped them. Why he did not do this to the Punisher? PIS, same as a lot of stuff in fights.

And we don't work much with PIS, here on Rumbles. In the Arena, hand to hand, Matt wanders up to Castle, blitzes him, and drops him with the kind of pressure point strike he used on Mr. Hyde on a day when Hyde was laughing off Matt falling from 10' above him and landing on his face with both feet.

Which is why we rarely see one skilled fighter going down to another via pressure point jabs

That would be more because that when two fighters are actually really close to each other in skill, speed, strength, and the like, it would be ridiculously difficult to hit a pin-point place on them unless one batters them into a stupor first. :)

Kind of like how all of the complicated techniques in martial arts that work on people who are massively less skilled than the person using them, fail miserably when attempted against someone who comes closer in skill...and suddenly everyone is going back to fundamentals.

In case of free shots the other person can take them out sure but if they are actively resisting and bracing themselves , they should be able to keep trucking ...after just one or two blows

Edit: The pressure points can't be "ignored" but rather,tolerated. Impaired sure, just not one hit KOd

Thing is, that works in both directions. Cass fights through multiple shots in the face from Shiva, eats Bruce's punches in the face and keeps on trucking, etc. And if she's landing the impairing blows before her opponent is, and faster, then it's stacking up on them faster than on her.

That's assuming we handwave away pressure points working as they normally do (in comics, always in comics...).

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

No I'm not arguing because they are "tough enough" they'll ignore pressure points . I'm arguing that they have higher pain tolerance . Not durability . Like how the Punisher can keep fighting after Daredevil freezes his arm . Not because he's more durable , he just has a higher pain ceiling.

Which is why we rarely see one skilled fighter going down to another via pressure point jabs

In case of free shots the other person can take them out sure but if they are actively resisting and bracing themselves , they should be able to keep trucking ...after just one or two blows

Edit: The pressure points can't be "ignored" but rather,tolerated. Impaired sure, just not one hit KOd

Agreed. EX: Crossover Batman and Arrow where Batman blocks the special death cobra blow by contracting his abs.

Also, current Dc is much better off with no character on Earth breaking the martial arts arena and everyone still having their own specializations but with Batman being the GOAT among non Super-humans. The man can even boil water when mediating under a waterfall!!! Edit: It reduces inconsistency. No one being able to flat out dodge if their back is turned after someone pulls the trigger on a gun is kinda "grounding". KK is of course the exception, but that's because he mastered everything in the galaxy!!! lol. If and when DC decides to bring up "Chi or Ki", we might see a change. Batman has been a literal God so Dc isn't above doing wtv/ Batman ball Z might be showing up one day as well. Anything to sell comic books!

[Godzilla2099]

To take this further, they started off nicely with her. I get they didn't want her bullet-timing, but if her big skill is combat - whereas other Batpeople have all kinds of other skills - she ought to be tops in that. And that's kind of how she was introduced. First scene we see her, she clearly beats all heck out of Grayson with him realizing that her attacks are all kill-shots - attacks that are landing, note - but she's pulling them to make them non-lethal. The implication here is that had she wanted him dead, he'd be dead.

Then after that?

Whether or not she's toying with him or trying to communicate, they show Jason getting the upper hand on her (fight broken up by Grayson). They have her getting whaled on by Orphan (ugh...NuDavid Cain who has none of Old Cain's semi-redeeming features/hilarity, instead being this faceless, spineless robot-thing) who then goes on to getting his ass handed to him by Grayson...off-screen, because Grayson got serious (I feel even the writers couldn't sell this to themselves, hence putting the fight off-screen), they have her getting bonked on the back of the head by one of a group the Batfamily is beating up in large numbers and saved by Bluebird (there are other ways to form a bond between characters, writer), they have Jason Todd of all people claiming to body-read her while she's body-reading him and starting to adjust to her fighting, etc, etc.

Any of these would be fine, but the general picture it paints is 'nothing special, really'.

This is the answer I was looking for and what I thought unfortunately happened to Cassandra.

I never found Cassandra 'overrpowered' to begin with. She was behind in the technical, detective, and the social skills compared to the rest of the Bat Family. However, in the fighting department, she excelled at it due to the sacrificing other skills in order to get to where she is.

So 52 Cass has the same difficulties as her pre-flashpoint but now she doesn't maintain the extraordinary strengths either.

That was the appeal to Cassandra Cain and why she was (and still is) my favorite heroine. How she coped with both her strengths and difficulties.

DC really doesn't get it.

[master of read]

This is the answer I was looking for and what I thought unfortunately happened to Cassandra.

I never found Cassandra 'overrpowered' to begin with. She was behind in the technical, detective, and the social skills compared to the rest of the Bat Family. However, in the fighting department, she excelled at it due to the sacrificing other skills in order to get to where she is.

So 52 Cass has the same difficulties as her pre-flashpoint but now she doesn't maintain the extraordinary strengths either.

That was the appeal to Cassandra Cain and why she was (and still is) my favorite heroine. How she coped with both her strengths and difficulties.

DC really doesn't get it.

i see what you are saying. for me, it's about dedication to the art. bats is a great martial artist, that goes without saying. but there are some people who are wholly dedicated to the fist. that's what i see cass as. she spent pretty much most of her living being turned into a fighting machine so i can buy that she's that good.