Um, has Jonah Hex ever met a black person?

[Johnny Thunders!]

I’m not asking for fans to accept a woke Jonah Hex, I’m saying accept that the character might be wrong from the start.

I was trying to think of other characters like Jonah Hex, I think the racism of the confederacy makes him a big problem, but I accept that he was produced from a time period where stuff like this went unexamined. It's worth looking at and saying, "Why did they make a confederate soldier the hero?"

I came up with The Outlaw Josie Wales, Judge Dredd, and Alec from a Clockwork Orange. They are all heroes, at least in their own worlds, but they all originate from a corrupt system.

[Riv86672]

I’m not asking for fans to accept a woke Jonah Hex, I’m saying accept that the character might be wrong from the start.

I have no problem accepting that.
Every time I look at his confederate uniform.

[Elmo]

Yes, of course he has. He was sold as a slave to indians, as well. And, he always stands against slavery. Its part of why he went awol. He wears the confederate colors to honor his brothers in arms.

Controversy warning! What you learned in school isn't the whole story.

The civil war was fought over tariffs and states rights. If it was about slavery, then they would have abolished slavery in the union border states as well. To Jonah hex, a born rebel, he was defending the underdog and his home from an oppressive regime. The point is that you can be a proud southerner, a confederate supporter, and be against slavery.

oh no....

all I’m gonna say is the confederate flag is a racist symbol, given how its current design and usage is a more modern one and not the actual confederate flag flown from the 1790s to 1890s. the specific design in question is very much racist. personally, i wouldn’t want DC to make any sort of comment on it. I’m not sure how much Jonah Hex has appeared since All Star Western but I don’t remember seeing the flag symbol in that book. and he hasn’t worn it in any media appearances. so they have tastefully dropped that symbol on his costume and (I’m pretty sure) that entire aspect of his character altogether.

the confederacy was built on racism. it is racist. doesn’t matter what other motivations were involved. Jonah Hex fighting for the confederate side isn’t technically bad imo, but showing pride for it and trying to honor it is wishy washy

[Riv86672]

Jonah never wore a confederate flag, he wears a confederate uniform.

[JackDaw]

I’m not asking for fans to accept a woke Jonah Hex, I’m saying accept that the character might be wrong from the start.

I was trying to think of other characters like Jonah Hex, I think the racism of the confederacy makes him a big problem, but I accept that he was produced from a time period where stuff like this went unexamined. It's worth looking at and saying, "Why did they make a confederate soldier the hero?"

I came up with The Outlaw Josie Wales, Judge Dredd, and Alec from a Clockwork Orange. They are all heroes, at least in their own worlds, but they all originate from a corrupt system.

He’s not a hero, he’s not a villain.

He’s a guy who has incredibly horrible things done to him as a kid and in turn does some horrible things himself...along with some heroic things.

For me he’s an incredibly interesting character who (I think) works himself to some sort of redemption, who becomes a better person because he has some sort of integrity....he is honest and would go through hell to help his friends.

I don’t think it’s valid to criticise him because he doesn’t fit into the typical DC heroes/ villains set-up. His story is a tragic one.

[Username taken]

I'm in the minority, but i dont think a character has to conform to every single "woke" trend currently making the rounds in order for me to like them.

It's not a "woke" trend.

It's a re-appreciation and better understanding of a past that's been severely clouded by white supremacy (hence the romanticizing of the confederacy and erection of confederate imagery centuries after the original conflict). Knowing what we know now, it becomes important that we question stuff that's been presented to us.

Now, i'm not that familiar with the current version of Jonah Hex but anyone that's moving around in a confederate uniform isn't a character that I can root for. But again, i want to assume there's extenuating circumstances around him wearing the uniform.

[kjn]

He’s not a hero, he’s not a villain.

He’s a guy who has incredibly horrible things done to him as a kid and in turn does some horrible things himself...along with some heroic things.

For me he’s an incredibly interesting character who (I think) works himself to some sort of redemption, who becomes a better person because he has some sort of integrity....he is honest and would go through hell to help his friends.

I don’t think it’s valid to criticise him because he doesn’t fit into the typical DC heroes/ villains set-up. His story is a tragic one.

Indeed, in the early part of this thread Ishmael discusses just that:

Gray and Palmiotti dealt with the issue of why he continues to wear the colors of the Confederacy in issue #36 of their run on Jonah Hex v. 2. It was probably the best single issue they did in the whole run (other than the very last issue of All-Star Western).

The reasons are psychologically complex, and brought out by his encountering the KKK in Tennessee. I won't spoil it, since it's worth reading.

I will say this though: Gray and Palmiotti crafted one of the psychologically densest characters of recent times in their take on Jonah Hex. Basically, he's a victim of child abuse by a drunken father who trades him into slavery to the Apache to cross their land. He eventually wins his freedom and upon his return to the East the Civil War is raging. He knows nothing about what's going on -- why it's being fought -- and joins the Confederacy simply because he's from the South. At some point he's captured by the Northerners and becomes aware of the issues, at which point I believe he deserted -- but not before he's been crucified by a Northern officer who winds up showing up again in the series later.

Ultimately the point of issue 36, as I recall, is that he wears the uniform as a form of self-loathing. He wants to provoke people into fighting him, because he doesn't believe he deserves anything other than abuse. He hates himself, and wants others to hate him too.

I can see and appreciate all that, but there are a couple more angles to consider here.

One is that there is a tendency—and one shared by all popular fiction—to simplify and to avoid complexity in the long run. #36 is a great example on how to write Jonah Hex and explore his time and character, but how many other writers take the time and effort to do so? For most writers and most readings, Jonah Hex will simply be a very gritty western hero wearing a confederate uniform, with all the racist symbolism that implies.

Another one involves how to approach representation. If Jonah Hex is DC's only western character, he pretty much becomes all of their western characters. If DC published a whole series of western characters, then it would be much easier to defend Jonah Hex's peculiar dress.

And last, as a historical nitpick, the Confederate army was notoriously badly supplied, and more often than not their soldiers had to use their own private clothes. As an officer, he would be expected to have bought his own uniform.

[Username taken]

Indeed, in the early part of this thread Ishmael discusses just that:



I can see and appreciate all that, but there are a couple more angles to consider here.

One is that there is a tendency—and one shared by all popular fiction—to simplify and to avoid complexity in the long run. #36 is a great example on how to write Jonah Hex and explore his time and character, but how many other writers take the time and effort to do so? For most writers and most readings, Jonah Hex will simply be a very gritty western hero wearing a confederate uniform, with all the racist symbolism that implies.

Another one involves how to approach representation. If Jonah Hex is DC's only western character, he pretty much becomes all of their western characters. If DC published a whole series of western characters, then it would be much easier to defend Jonah Hex's peculiar dress.

And last, as a historical nitpick, the Confederate army was notoriously badly supplied, and more often than not their soldiers had to use their own private clothes. As an officer, he would be expected to have bought his own uniform.

I'm just seeing the post that you quoted above.

I think it's admirable that Palmiotti approached and addressed the issue with the uniform head on. Given that explanation, Hex in the uniform makes a lot more sense.

One can't just wave problematic stuff because it represents "wokeness". That's the worst possible possible position anyone can literally take on practically anything societal issue.

[Riv86672]

It's not a "woke" trend.

It's a re-appreciation and better understanding of a past that's been severely clouded by white supremacy (hence the romanticizing of the confederacy and erection of confederate imagery centuries after the original conflict). Knowing what we know now, it becomes important that we question stuff that's been presented to us.

Now, i'm not that familiar with the current version of Jonah Hex but anyone that's moving around in a confederate uniform isn't a character that I can root for. But again, i want to assume there's extenuating circumstances around him wearing the uniform.

Seems pretty “woke” to me, but that’s just my opinion.

For better or worse, the Civil War is part of American history, and I don’t support getting rid of every reminder of it, or changing characters like Jonah.
If anything, these reminders do just that, remind us, and serve as a means to start dialogues on the subject. There’s a reason Auschwitz wasn’t bulldozed at the first opportunity. Because ppl should never forget what happened, so hopefully it won’t happen again. And yet there are Holocaust deniers in the world.
Given the current trend of getting rid of Civil War reminders, in a hundred years we’ll have slavery deniers saying it wasn’t all that bad back then/that things were misinterpreted.

Again, just my opinion, but history shouldn’t be sanitized for our protection.
That’s the complete opposite of protection.

[batnbreakfast]

Its not like JH is wearing the uniform in 21st century. He roams the Old West. JH was raised by Native Americans and is friends with them from what I remember.

[Username taken]

Seems pretty “woke” to me, but that’s just my opinion.

For better or worse, the Civil War is part of American history, and I don’t support getting rid of every reminder of it, or changing characters like Jonah.
If anything, these reminders do just that, remind us, and serve as a means to start dialogues on the subject. There’s a reason Auschwitz wasn’t bulldozed at the first opportunity. Because ppl should never forget what happened, so hopefully it won’t happen again. And yet there are Holocaust deniers in the world.
Given the current trend of getting rid of Civil War reminders, in a hundred years we’ll have slavery deniers saying it wasn’t all that bad back then/that things were misinterpreted.

Again, just my opinion, but history shouldn’t be sanitized for our protection.
That’s the complete opposite of protection.

I'm not really concerned about "wokeness" (which is ANOTHER term that originated in the black community that's been twisted to mean something else), i'm more concerned with hand waiving away societal issues because of labels.

I absolutely do agree that maintaining history is important but the way it's being depicted is the issue here and is part of the greater discussions being held at the moment. The US has a long history of reinterpreting its history (the Daughters of the Confederacy were far too successful in their efforts) and some states in the US are erasing Hilary Clinton and Helen Keller from their books...entirely. And lots of these states still maintain the romanticized view of the confederacy, you can only imagine what kind of worldview children in the state will grow up with. History should be depicted as it was but critical analysis of those that were called heroes or villains from that era should be carried out.

As Kjn pointed out, the issue has been addressed by Palmiotti and I really have no problem with the explanation for Hex's wearing of the confederate uniform. Stuff like this, particularly depictions of stuff from the past should be addressed in context which has been done, so it's all good.

[Riv86672]

I'm not really concerned about "wokeness" (which is ANOTHER term that originated in the black community that's been twisted to mean something else)

Oddly, the first time I heard the term, it def. wasn’t from a fellow black person.

[Username taken]

Oddly, the first time I heard the term, it def. wasn’t from a fellow black person.

Yeah, it's a term that's hardly in use anymore. Probably because of the way it was appropriated.

It was far more popular circa 2016.

[Johnny Thunders!]

I think we erase history when we say Jonah Hex was probably not racist, or that he understood slavery because he was enslaved by the Apache. Which is really not helping the characters cause in anyway, that story is the ultimate example of re-writing history.

[kjn]

As Kjn pointed out, the issue has been addressed by Palmiotti and I really have no problem with the explanation for Hex's wearing of the confederate uniform. Stuff like this, particularly depictions of stuff from the past should be addressed in context which has been done, so it's all good.

I think you mistake my point.

Palmiotti's et alii's take on Jonah Hex only means that his relation to the uniform, the Confederation, and slavery has been handled well once. It doesn't fix or redeem other takes that are less nuanced or less well-handled, nor does it manage to address the issue that Jonah Hex currently is DC's only western hero.