PREVIEW: Detective Comics #935

[darkseidpwns]

Tim is more experienced because he's an older character. Multiple minis', an ongoing series that lasted about 175 issues, multiple annuals, YJ, Teen Titans, Red Robin there's been plenty of Tim Drake adventures that cover his character thoroughly in almost every way imaginable. So Tim clearly has more tangible experience.

[Caivu]

Tim is more experienced because he's an older character. Multiple minis', an ongoing series that lasted about 175 issues, multiple annuals, YJ, Teen Titans, Red Robin there's been plenty of Tim Drake adventures that cover his character thoroughly in almost every way imaginable. So Tim clearly has more tangible experience.

Current Tim is not pre-Flashpoint Tim. He's been around longer in terms of publication history, yes. But that's all irrelevant in current continuity.

[TRS80]

Ok I'll let it go. I didnt know enough about her. They should spot light her more in this book.

[Caivu]

Ok I'll let it go. I didnt know enough about her. They should spot light her more in this book.

I've heard similar critiques elsewhere, and I'm starting to agree a little. As a fan of hers, I know that she's competent enough for this, but to a newer reader I can definitely see that it looks like she's being shoved into position just because. The phrase "telling not showing" has been used a lot to describe her role so far, and I agree there needs to be more showing.

[Godlike13]

Batwoman could be a brand new character and would be more qualified to lead then Tim, just on the basis of what he did these last 5 years with the TTs.

[SXVA]

Batwoman could be a brand new character and would be more qualified to lead then Tim, just on the basis of what he did these last 5 years with the TTs.

If that were a legit basis to go on. Teen Titans have been a travesty for about that long. Tim has proven himself to be very capable in other incarnations. Like Batman said the greatest tactical mind he's teamed up with.

[Caivu]

If that were a legit basis to go on. Teen Titans have been a travesty for about that long. Tim has proven himself to be very capable in other incarnations. Like Batman said the greatest tactical mind he's teamed up with.

But those other incarnations mean nothing now. He can still be tactically great and be lacking in other areas.

[SXVA]

But those other incarnations mean nothing now. He can still be tactically great and be lacking in other areas.

It still means something to me. I don't give a crap what DC's New 52 says. Tim is who he is to me in other incarnations and that's not changing. I won't support anything like the abomination of New 52 Teen Titans. So far i think Tynion's doing a good job with him here.

As could anyone excel at one thing but lack in other areas. Just because Batwoman has military training doesn't make her a good leader for example. There's many military soldiers who excel at following orders and being led rather than leading. To have a brilliant tactical mind lends itself very well to leading a street level team or any other team. I have no doubts he's more than capable of leading a team, it's just for the premise and story to work and have Batwoman come in it has to be this way. I'm okay with Tim taking a backseat and some time to rebuild and reestablish for now if it means developing him in a more positive direction than what has been seen of recent.

[Caivu]

It still means something to me. I don't give a crap what DC's New 52 says. Tim is who he is to me in other incarnations and that's not changing. I won't support anything like the abomination of New 52 Teen Titans. So far i think Tynion's doing a good job with him here.

As could anyone excel at one thing but lack in other areas. Just because Batwoman has military training doesn't make her a good leader for example. There's many military soldiers who excel at following orders and being led rather than leading. To have a brilliant tactical mind lends itself very well to leading a street level team or any other team. I have no doubts he's more than capable of leading a team, it's just for the story to work and have Batwoman come in it has to be this way.

You can disagree with how he is now all you want, but that doesn't change the facts. And for the record, I can empathize with you; seeing your favorite character getting mishandled is never fun. But going into denial about it doesn't strike me as the right way to deal with it.

I think you're still misunderstanding Batwoman's role here. She's not supposed to be a leader in the sense of a role model, she's here to be an instructor. She's fully placed herself in drill-sergeant-nasty mode, because that's what she knows. I don't know a lot about Tim or why he appeals to so many people, but based on what little I do know I agree he would fulfill the role model role very well.

[SXVA]

You can disagree with how he is now all you want, but that doesn't change the facts. And for the record, I can empathize with you; seeing your favorite character getting mishandled is never fun. But going into denial about it doesn't strike me as the right way to deal with it.

I think you're still misunderstanding Batwoman's role here. She's not supposed to be a leader in the sense of a role model, she's here to be an instructor. She's fully placed herself in drill-sergeant-nasty mode, because that's what she knows. I don't know a lot about Tim or why he appeals to so many people, but based on what little I do know I agree he would fulfill the role model role very well.

I realize that and i'm not in denial of it. I'm more sticking a middle finger up to it and saying i don't accept it and not supporting it. Same goes for Bart and Connor and Cassie. If anything's portraying Tim or those others in a way that i don't feel is respecting and positive to the character then i won't support it which i have a right to do. If i want to i can just go back and read those older comics again. They aren't wiped away from existence. Those incarnations exist somewhere, some time.

Just because something like the New 52 comes around and says this or that doesn't mean much. I can easily wait it out and for that to pass and something else to come around or just move on and keep the older stuff close to heart.

I'm not misunderstanding it, there's many facets to being a leader. I get that. Just because Tim has a brilliant tactical mind doesn't mean he's ready to lead a team yet in this version of things. That was pointed out in the first issue. I don't think Batwoman's really established in being a leader though it's just for the premise of the story. It used the whole military thing as a way to cut corners in establishing the role for her imo. As the writer looking at it from a clean slate there's any number of possibilities it could be set up from Batman simply training them like is usually the case, to Dick training em, Batman could have the Justice League come in and each train them in various ways, and on and on. Or, there could be more of a learn by experience approach and the "trainees" for lack of a better word goes out and learns on their own. Which, i have no doubts Tim would naturally become the leader in this scenario regardless because he's simply a natural leader. Even if he doesn't necessary want the role he'll probably fall into it most of the times. Whatever the case, it was chosen for Batwoman to take on the role here. Which, as long as it's good and positive for the characters i'm okay with and so far it's looking okay.

[Caivu]

I realize that and i'm not in denial of it. I'm more sticking a middle finger up to it and saying i don't accept it and not supporting it. Same goes for Bart and Connor and Cassie. If anything's portraying Tim or those others in a way that i don't feel is respecting and positive to the character then i won't support it which i have a right to do. If i want to i can just go back and read those older comics again. They aren't wiped away from existence. Those incarnations exist somewhere, some time.

We're going to have to agree to disagree, I guess. You certainly don't have to like it, but if you don't accept that that's the status quo now... yeah, you're kind of denying it. I don't see how it could be otherwise.

I can sort of see where you're coming from now in regard to Batwoman's role, though. If you don't know a lot about her, I can see how it looks like she's there just because. I completely disagree that she is, though, and I don't think any of the other scenarios you presented would've worked.

[SXVA]

We're going to have to agree to disagree, I guess. You certainly don't have to like it, but if you don't accept that that's the status quo now... yeah, you're kind of denying it. I don't see how it could be otherwise.

I can sort of see where you're coming from now in regard to Batwoman's role, though. If you don't know a lot about her, I can see how it looks like she's there just because. I completely disagree that she is, though, and I don't think any of the other scenarios you presented would've worked.

Because i'm not denying it exists, i'm simply not accepting/supporting it. That's what i mean. To give a pretty weak example lol, say Justin Bieber is at the top of the pop charts i'm not denying he's popular but that doesn't mean i'm supporting him or accepting that he's the best musician around because of it. I know that's kind of a weak example but i just woke up a little awhile go and making my first tea and i can't do anything until i have my first tea of the day haha.

Yes, i suppose that could be more on me in the sense of not being too familiar with Batwoman. She's one of my least known members of the Batfamily. I read the first arc of JH Williams when she was trying to stop that drowning lady myth and i've seen her here and there but i'm not as familiar with her. From what i've known of the character i haven't pictured her as a leader type. I thought she was more of a lonewolf type character. That being said it's kind of on the artists/creators to establish things in the book for people who might not be as familiar with things. I don't think her character was established very well in a believable way for the role here. I'm okay with it for now because i think things are flowing pretty well but i'm just saying.

My main issue with it is, i don't really think they're getting the best training through Batwoman. I Don't mean to insult the character but it doesn't give weight to the team's advancement with her at the helm based on what i feel is established in contrast to like say some of the best characters in various fields training where it would give the team more weight and validation.

It's like, the question is asked: "Who trained you?" and a random person is like "Wonder Woman" as there's a gasp and pause of being impressed, and then this team is like "Batwoman" ehhhhhhhhhhhh. I just never seen Batwoman up to those sort of levels where it carries the same weight.

I disagree other scenarios wouldn't have worked. Almost any scenario could work if the writer can find a way to make it work in my opinion.

[Caivu]

Because i'm not denying it exists, i'm simply not accepting/supporting it. That's what i mean. To give a pretty weak example lol, say Justin Bieber is at the top of the pop charts i'm not denying he's popular but that doesn't mean i'm supporting him or accepting that he's the best musician around because of it. I know that's kind of a weak example but i just woke up a little awhile go and making my first tea and i can't do anything until i have my first tea of the day haha.

That's actually a good explanation. I understand your point now.

Yes, i suppose that could be more on me in the sense of not being too familiar with Batwoman. She's one of my least known members of the Batfamily. I read the first arc of JH Williams when she was trying to stop that drowning lady myth and i've seen her here and there but i'm not as familiar with her. From what i've known of the character i haven't pictured her as a leader type. I thought she was more of a lonewolf type character. That being said it's kind of on the artists/creators to establish things in the book for people who might not be as familiar with things. I don't think her character was established very well in a believable way for the role here. I'm okay with it for now because i think things are flowing pretty well but i'm just saying.

Again, I think that's a fair critique you have, that she's not been set up enough for new readers. And you're right, she prefers to be solo for the most part, but she also isn't averse to cooperating if the stakes are big enough. You're also right that she's not really the leader type, but she's not a leader here, she's an instructor. That's a subtle distinction, but an important one. She's a "leader" only in terms of authority.

My main issue with it is, i don't really think they're getting the best training through Batwoman. I Don't mean to insult the character but it doesn't give weight to the team's advancement with her at the helm based on what i feel is established in contrast to like say some of the best characters in various fields training them would giv the team more weight and validation.

The main thing she's focusing on in their training is getting them to work as a unit. She doesn't seem like she's starting from scratch or acting like they're complete novices. She's just pushing them to a limit they've never been to before. They need someone hard-edged like her for that. There's not a bunch of time to get them trained, either, so they can't all get trained by a bunch of people. From a story standpoint that's good because it increases the stakes; they don't have the luxury of taking their time.

My problem with Wonder Woman, Dick, Superman doing this... they could all be capable of this kind of training I suppose, but they also all have a natural likability to them. That could be at odds with trying to forge discipline and camaraderie amongst the trainees; if the instructor is also their friend, what's the point? Plus, Batwoman is the only one who has experience with modern military training (AFAIK), which is what she's using as a basis for her program. Also, don't the others have their own things to do anyway? It would be weird both from an in-universe and out-of-universe perspective to have other Justice League members in Gotham for any significant amount of time.

[SXVA]

That's actually a good explanation. I understand your point now.



Again, I think that's a fair critique you have, that she's not been set up enough for new readers. And you're right, she prefers to be solo for the most part, but she also isn't averse to cooperating if the stakes are big enough. You're also right that she's not really the leader type, but she's not a leader here, she's an instructor. That's a subtle distinction, but an important one. She's a "leader" only in terms of authority.



The main thing she's focusing on in their training is getting them to work as a unit. She doesn't seem like she's starting from scratch or acting like they're complete novices. She's just pushing them to a limit they've never been to before. They need someone hard-edged like her for that.

My problem with Wonder Woman, Dick, Superman doing this... they could all be capable of this kind of training I suppose, but they also all have a natural likability to them. That could be at odds with trying to forge discipline and camaraderie amongst the trainees; if the instructor is also their friend, what's the point? Plus, Batwoman is the only one who has experience with modern military training (AFAIK), which is what she's using as a basis for her program. Also, don't the others have their own things to do anyway? It would be weird both from an in-universe and out-of-universe perspective to have other Justice League members in Gotham for any significant amount of time.

I see what you mean. Maybe i'm putting too much overall emphasis in thinking of her as a leader rather than an instructor for specialized purpose. She is in a leadership role as instructor but for specific reasons whereas maybe i'm looking at things too broad and seeing it as them getting ALL their training from her and that's where my issue is coming from.

If my above reasoning was changed to where they had a bunch of various training but then add in this specialized training from Batwoman to become more of an operational unit that does make things MUCH better for me.

So, yes if that is indeed how things are being established as specialized training and not all of their training i'm definitely way more accepting of that.

[Caivu]

I see what you mean. Maybe i'm putting too much overall emphasis in thinking of her as a leader rather than an instructor for specialized purpose. She is in a leadership role as instructor but for specific reasons whereas maybe i'm looking at things too broad and seeing it as them getting ALL their training from her and that's where my issue is coming from.

If my above reasoning was changed to where they had a bunch of various training but then add in this specialized training from Batwoman to become more of an operational unit that does make things MUCH better for me.

So, yes if that is indeed how things are being established as specialized training and not all of their training i'm definitely way more accepting of that.

Cool. I have to say, I've enjoyed this discussion!