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  1. #61
    Mighty Member Ekie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simbob4000 View Post
    Not really. Besides that most just aren't as visually interesting, those characters wouldn't really fill the gameplay void. Besides Black Panther, most of those characters would probably end up playing the same unlike you just weren't drawing on the actual characters for their move list. Daredevil and Black Panther are the only two of those characters you listed that would probably have a range game.

    They are a big brand, but that doesn't mean there characters are all good designs, or that they'd all be fun to play as in a video game.
    And ryu and Ken are "visually appealing"? The characters can do whatever the devs make them do. Whether it's electra throwing her sais instead of a lame fireball that every other character throws. Define visually appealing? and then explain why Chun li, Viper, Ken, Ryu, Haggar insert Capcom street fighter is moreso than Electra,Shang chi, Punisher, ect who all have had wider media exposure worldwide.

  2. #62
    Mighty Member Ekie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    MvC has lots of history and a marquee title among fighting game fans. An all Marvel fighter would be nice but MvC is a much safer bet. Not to mention the 3v3 tag is a huge draw as there isn't any fighting game out there like it.
    Then why did the last one Disappoint in sales? History is just that. The tournament scene may be nostalgic but the general sales audience doesn't care. The tournament scene is amounts to about 5% of sales in comparison. Marvels characters alone are bigger sales draws than capcom's which is the real reason Capcom doesn't just do "their own vs game with their characters." The genereal population isn't rushing out to buy Phoenix Wright vs Arthur the knight.

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member Derek Metaltron's Avatar
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    I think a solo Marvel fighting game today, assuming that it can access all areas of Marvel as opposed to just MCU material, have two big difficulties in satisfying audiences...

    a. Marvel properties and the various teams and heroes thanks to the movies are far better known to general audiences than DC. Look at Injustice which has Justice League and Teen Titan heroes, plus a decent array of Batman villains and the like. It feels oddly complete to me, and the absent of Metal Men, Blackhawks, Challengers of the Unknown and the like won't bother most people including fans because ultimately the Justice League and Teen Titans sum up most of DC one way or another. Marvel though? People know about the Avengers, X-Men, Guardians, Inhumans and Fantastic Four, and many of the odd heroes like Spidey, DD, Ghost Rider and so forth. And that's without any villains! Thus getting a nice roster of 30 something characters without being Avengers or X-Men focused is really tricky.

    b. On top of that we have the new wave of heroes like Kamala's Ms Marvel, Lady Thor (and Odinson), Sam's Captain America, Ultimate Spider-Man etc. Their lack of inclusion would probably also be noticed, so you have the question of how to approach them too!

    Personally I think when a Marvel fighting game does finally land on consoles, it'll be specific to a team, almost certainly Avengers. Though even that could be tricky...

  4. #64
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekie View Post
    Then why did the last one Disappoint in sales? History is just that. The tournament scene may be nostalgic but the general sales audience doesn't care. The tournament scene is amounts to about 5% of sales in comparison. Marvels characters alone are bigger sales draws than capcom's which is the real reason Capcom doesn't just do "their own vs game with their characters." The genereal population isn't rushing out to buy Phoenix Wright vs Arthur the knight.
    It didn't disappoint in sales. The vanilla game sold little over 2 million copies which was the sales target. Ultimate sold half of that.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekie View Post
    And ryu and Ken are "visually appealing"? The characters can do whatever the devs make them do. Whether it's electra throwing her sais instead of a lame fireball that every other character throws. Define visually appealing? and then explain why Chun li, Viper, Ken, Ryu, Haggar insert Capcom street fighter is moreso than Electra,Shang chi, Punisher, ect who all have had wider media exposure worldwide.
    Yes, Ryu is a better design than, say, Iron Fist. I like Iron Fist, but he looks like a dork, and none of his redesigns do much of anything to help that.

    They can't really do whatever they want. The characters moves are dictated by things they've done in the comic books. I guess they could do anything they wanted to do, but it would be stupid and would end up with a character that doesn't actually feel like their moves have anything to do with them.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    Changing the gameplay style isn't an issue for Capcom. They completely changed Jill in MvC3 to match her incarceration from Resident Evil 5. They changed Frank West from how he was in TvC. Zero was given new supers and a new move when he made the jump from TvC. Even the Marvel characters from past games got changes. While Doom has all the same moves he had before he is nothing like how he was in MvC2 where he was more of a zoning character. They completely changed how Iron Man works in MvC3 with having a non-standard air dash (starts slow before acculturating), changing the button input for smart bombs and having them hit OTG, and not having the War Machine carry over like War Destroyer even though he was just a black and grey color swap of Iron Man.
    They changed Jill to RE5 Cammy Jill. The change is based on a totally different version of the character. It's probably not all that bad of a change either, calling on zombies was cool (and Frank has that now) but outside of that she didn't have anything to do with Jill in Resident Evil; that charge move was always weird. Frank West still has the basics from TvC, they just also added more Dead Rising stuff on top of that. The other stuff you're talking about is because the control layout is completely different from before.

    War Machine does have War Destroyer in MvC2.

    When someone wants Venom, they want a Venom that looks like Venom, and plays like Venom. They don't want someone that would probably play more like Deadpool or something.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Metaltron View Post
    Thanks, I guess DA stuff doesn't agree with tag all that well. In any case I figure a roster like this means that fan favourite characters who would never normally appear in the fighting games like Captain Britain and Fantomex get to appear. I'm not sure exactly why you think those rosters are better though, given those two games Marvel rosters were virtually all 90's popular X-Men, whilst there's a nicer balance here. And basing it on AVX means you have a reasoning for a greater focus on heroes over villains, and of course more modern additions to the teams. And for the most part there's a nice counter character from the ones on the left to those on the right. Personally I think it's got all the logical additions I'd want in a game (minus Nightcrawler who was absent in AVX so...).
    But Fantomex isn't really a fan favorite, and he's just a gun guy like Deadpool...only because he doesn't break the fourth wall he can't have a move where he does something pull the lifebar down and hit someone with it. He's a completely pointless character to have there.

    They were better because they have a more eclectic group of characters with a wider variety of gameplay opportunities. It seems like you just picked 50 characters without much thought of how they would play, or if they would play somewhat like other characters you've got there.

    You're also just missing a whole lot of popular Marvel characters there.

  8. #68
    Mighty Member Ekie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simbob4000 View Post
    Yes, Ryu is a better design than, say, Iron Fist. I like Iron Fist, but he looks like a dork, and none of his redesigns do much of anything to help that.

    They can't really do whatever they want. The characters moves are dictated by things they've done in the comic books. I guess they could do anything they wanted to do, but it would be stupid and would end up with a character that doesn't actually feel like their moves have anything to do with them.

    No, Ryu is a guy in a gee that can't do anything Iron Fist couldn't do. Him looking like a dork is your opinion.

    And please show me a comic where Wolverine shoots huge lasers out of his chest in the shape of an X like he does in MvC or one where She Hulk summons cars out of nowhere to hit people with. Hulk jumps into the air and grabs a comet to hit people with.... Pretending like Capcom completely follows comics is completely wrong. X-23 vanishes like she's the invisible woman in MvC. Developers can get away with doing what they want for the most part. That includes making Electra do a spinning triple air kick similar to Ryu and chunli. Marvel is an eclectic enough group of characters who can all be made to play differently if the delevoper isn't lazy (which Capcom is looking at Ken, Akuma, Dan, Ryu, Sean, Sagat, Gouken, Sakura, Evil Ryu, Shin Akuma......)
    Last edited by Ekie; 07-03-2016 at 06:29 PM.

  9. #69
    Mighty Member Ekie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    It didn't disappoint in sales. The vanilla game sold little over 2 million copies which was the sales target. Ultimate sold half of that.

    And Injustice outsold both. That's Injustice an ALL DC fighting game who's universe's popular character are limited to the Justice League mains and Batman and friends. So Why should Marvel who's popular characters span their entire universe want to limit their roster (and sales) with less popular and less marketable characters from Capcom? For nostalgia's sake? The novelty of that has worn off and the idea of OMG I can't believe Ryu is fighting (insert Marvel Character) isn't a selling point anymore.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekie View Post
    No, Ryu is a guy in a gee that can't do anything Iron Fist couldn't do. Him looking like a dork is your opinion.

    And please show me a comic where Wolverine shoots huge lasers out of his chest in the shape of an X like he does in MvC or one where She Hulk summons cars out of nowhere to hit people with. Hulk jumps into the air and grabs a comet to hit people with.... Pretending like Capcom completely follows comics is completely wrong. X-23 vanishes like she's the invisible woman in MvC. Developers can get away with doing what they want for the most part. That includes making Electra do a spinning triple air kick similar to Ryu and chunli. Marvel is an eclectic enough group of characters who can all be made to play differently if the delevoper isn't lazy (which Capcom is looking at Ken, Akuma, Dan, Ryu, Sean, Sagat, Gouken, Sakura, Evil Ryu, Shin Akuma......)
    Ryu is a simple elegant, he's a guy in a gi and with just that design you could probably pick him out just by his silhouette. Iron Fist does look like a dork, he looks like so weird disco Kung fu man.

    Wolverine doesn't shoot a laser out of his chest. She-Hulk has thrown cars in the comics before, and Hulk's meteor move is based on the comics. X-23 vanishing is a stylized way for a 2D fighting game of conveying her slipping into the shadows.

    If you think Sagat, Gouken, Sean, and Ryu all play the same then maybe you shouldn't be talking about fighting games. You try and plays those characters alike an see where that gets you.

  11. #71
    Mighty Member Ekie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simbob4000 View Post
    Ryu is a simple elegant, he's a guy in a gi and with just that design you could probably pick him out just by his silhouette. Iron Fist does look like a dork, he looks like so weird disco Kung fu man.

    Wolverine doesn't shoot a laser out of his chest. She-Hulk has thrown cars in the comics before, and Hulk's meteor move is based on the comics. X-23 vanishing is a stylized way for a 2D fighting game of conveying her slipping into the shadows.

    If you think Sagat, Gouken, Sean, and Ryu all play the same then maybe you shouldn't be talking about fighting games. You try and plays those characters alike an see where that gets you.
    I've been playing fighting games for 20 years. Which is why I know that you pointing to the similar way that a Shang Chi, Iron fist, and Electra would play is meaningless from a creative developmental point...and then you also defending the subtle differences in the playstyles of all the shotos of Capcom is laughable and completely goes against your first point about all Marvels fighting character only being able to play in the same mannor as if those same subtle changes couldn't be made.

    Wolverine shooting lasers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbOq0m0EU1U Fatal claw. creative license
    She hulk has thrown cars.....but she damn sure doesn't magically summon them out of nowhere. creative license
    X-23 "slipping into the shadows" I.E. disappearing....creative license.



    yet you try to claim that absolutely no creative license or"stylizing" can be used for any of Marvels fighting characters to make them play in a unique manor. And by unique I don't mean Ken, Ryu, Sagat....I meant actually unique.

    Your point is pretty much
    Agent venom, Punisher, Blade, and Deadpool can't all be in the game because they all have guns. But Ryu, Ken, Sagat and Akuma.....they're ok.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekie View Post
    And Injustice outsold both. That's Injustice an ALL DC fighting game who's universe's popular character are limited to the Justice League mains and Batman and friends. So Why should Marvel who's popular characters span their entire universe want to limit their roster (and sales) with less popular and less marketable characters from Capcom? For nostalgia's sake? The novelty of that has worn off and the idea of OMG I can't believe Ryu is fighting (insert Marvel Character) isn't a selling point anymore.
    Injustice did better because it's got a story mode. It doesn't seem to matter that it's a really shitty completely stupid story, a story mode is just something the casual audience wants. For whatever reason people wanting a story mode is something that Capcom just hadn't caught onto.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekie View Post
    I've been playing fighting games for 20 years. Which is why I know that you pointing to the similar way that a Shang Chi, Iron fist, and Electra would play is meaningless from a creative developmental point...and then you also defending the subtle differences in the playstyles of all the shotos of Capcom is laughable and completely goes against your first point about all Marvels fighting character only being able to play in the same mannor as if those same subtle changes couldn't be made.
    20 years seems like a long time to play fighting games without learning anything about them, surely after 20 years could can guess at where Capcom would take such and such character gameplay wise.

    Having Shang Chi and Iron Fist together in a Marvel vs Capcom game, or just an all Marvel game would be as pointless as having Iron Fist and Fei Long together in the same game. They might be a little different, but they're all such Bruce Lee characters that you only really need one of them, and Iron Fist with his Jam like power ups is the more interesting one to go with.


    Sean isn't a shoto. From a story standpoint his fighting style is the same as Ryu and Ken, but from a gameplay standpoint (which is what you're talking about) he plays nothing like them at all, you wouldn't ever use him the same way you use those two. The difference between Sean and Ryu aren't subtle, the two just don't play anything like each other. Likewise you wouldn't use Gouken the same way as them. Ryu and Sagat play more alike those Ryu, Sean, and Gouken do.

    Wolverine shooting lasers Fatal claw. creative license
    She hulk has thrown cars.....but she damn sure doesn't magically summon them out of nowhere. creative license
    X-23 "slipping into the shadows" I.E. disappearing....creative license.
    Intentionally being dense doesn't make your point. Those aren't lasers, those are the same kind of claw marks he makes when he's always slashing. He would seem to be slashing so fast that you don't see anything but him after his attack. It's a 2D fighting game, it's not a magical summons, it's just throwing a car. The stage can't just be littered with cars for She-Hulk to throw


    yet you try to claim that absolutely no creative license or"stylizing" can be used for any of Marvels fighting characters to make them play in a unique manor. And by unique I don't mean Ken, Ryu, Sagat....I meant actually unique.
    I didn't once ever even kind of try to claim any such thing. But I also didn't know we were talking about things as if we didn't understand how fighting games work. I see know you were. So to be clear, if say, the Kingpin was in one of these games, I want him to throw a desk. Because these are fighting games I would expect said desk to just be something that he pulled out of nowhere, because that's how it would have to work in a 2D fighting game if that was just one of his moves. I would also want the Punisher to use a Steamroller, grab his opponent so a big titted Russian man could come out of nowhere and punch him, and for the Punisher to have a move where he punches a polar bear. Note these would all be moves based on things the characters do in the comics, even if stuff like Russians, polar bears, steamrollers, and desk were coming out of nowhere. Punisher could have a special where he drops a nuke and leaves the stage a wasteland...because that's a thing he's done.


    Your point is pretty much
    Agent venom, Punisher, Blade, and Deadpool can't all be in the game because they all have guns. But Ryu, Ken, Sagat and Akuma.....they're ok.

    I didn't say Agent Venom, Punisher, Blade, and Deadpool can't all be in a game because they would play alike.

    You may also want to take special note that those Capcom characters aren't all in the VS games. When Ken has been in them, like in MvC2, he doesn't play anything like Ryu. And even with them playing pretty differently from each other in MvC2, when it came time for MvC3 they dropped Ken because they felt even that version was still too much like Ryu.
    Last edited by simbob4000; 07-03-2016 at 08:33 PM.

  14. #74
    Mighty Member Ekie's Avatar
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    lol slashing so fast you can't see it but please ignore the lasers!

    lol Ken and Ryu are so different. One has a fireball that goes a few frames slower than the others while the other has an uppercut that does more damage then the others and has FIRE!!!

    the creativity!!! lol I'm done here. you aren't even trying anymore and are just contradicting your own points.

    lol because Iron fist = Bruce Lee?!? and Shang Chi = Bruce Lee?!

  15. #75
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekie View Post
    And Injustice outsold both. That's Injustice an ALL DC fighting game who's universe's popular character are limited to the Justice League mains and Batman and friends. So Why should Marvel who's popular characters span their entire universe want to limit their roster (and sales) with less popular and less marketable characters from Capcom? For nostalgia's sake? The novelty of that has worn off and the idea of OMG I can't believe Ryu is fighting (insert Marvel Character) isn't a selling point anymore.
    Injustice outselling MvC is irrelevant as the game was still successful at the end of day. MvC3 is still being played while Injustice died as soon as MKX hit. LOL at Capcom having less marketable characters. Ryu is the face of Street Fighter and defecto Capcom mascot in general these days. He's one the most recognizable characters they have and he's just a guy in a gi. Resident Evil series is insanely popular with RE5 and RE6 being the best selling games in the company's history with over 6 million copies sold each. There other IPs like Devil May Cry are huge on the popularity department. You are heavily underestimating the value of Capcom IP especially towards the general gaming audience.

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