Successors more popular than the original

[Reptisaurus!]

Black Widow, although the original is one of my favorite characters.

[idisestablish]

Not really fair. If you are going to compare the popularity of a character who is currently appearing with a character who has had very little visibility in decades, of course the newer character will come out ahead.

Sandy Hausler

Whether it's fair or not, it's the reality. Do the characters have an even playing field? No. Likewise, Golden Age Vision hasn't had a fair chance to compete against the modern Vision, but that doesn't mean that modern Vision hasn't surpassed the original in terms of popularity. Carol is more popular here and now. You could use your same argument for just about any of these characters we're discussing since all of them are either retired, dead, or operating under different names. So I guess I don't really get what your point is.

[PyroTwilight]

he's not a legacy hero. his name was given spontaneously without Hammond in mind, iirc. of course some people might still count this as being part of a legacy. at any rate, Human Torch always seemed to me like Hammond was overcompensating for being an android. j/k

It was actually explicitly a reference to Jim.

Even in the first origin there's a quick line about him using the name and someone going "OH YEAH AFTER THE WWII hero" or somesuch. But more than likely they used the name thinking the other would never be used again much like Flash and Green Lantern did with Barry and Hal.

[Icefalcon]

I think a case can be made for Scott as Ant-Man. Even if Hank is probably more popular on the fanbase, he had thousands of identitys and codenames over time, and he's popular because he's Hank Pym, not because he's Ant-Man(if you get what I mean). Of course that has a lot to do with MCU, but that ended up making Scott relevant at the comics again.

Yes I'd say the movie has probably bumped Scott's popularity plus the fact that Hank will likely be thought of as a different identity by people depending on when they started reading him. He's really always Yellowjacket to me for instance

About Carol, and the arguments against her: First of all, her series don't sell as bad as some people say, they're just not what can be considered enough as "Marvel's main woman" like people call her these days, and Marvel probably really wants her to be. Carol was already a popular character before she was Captain Marvel. Mar-Vell is dead for ages, and today, he have nothing but one or two nostalgic fans here and there. It makes no sense to say he's more popular or succesful than her, because he was already gone before some or most people here were born. While Carol, a character who was created long ago too, it's still here and it's not going anywhere, and she may not be insanely popular but she has a loyal fanbase.

Sam Wilson has a loyal fanbase but he's probably still not outselling Steve Rogers in almost any decade of Steve's sales you care to pick.

I agree is not a fair comparison. But there's some people actually saying Mar-Vell is more popular as Captain Marvel, what it's so obviously not true.

Not is. Was, When he had his own comic. A lot of the original to current name legacies like Vision and Electro are obvious because the original never carried their own book for long if at all. Captain Marvel is less clear cut he was a big seller in his time carried his own title and was a frequent guest star in other comics. When comparing eras you have to look at how well received the older character was or you'll end up with comparisons like America Chavez is more popular than Madeline Joyce. America is too new, has never held down her own title and Madeline did and quite a successful run for the era too. The fact she's no longer published doesn't render her immediately irrelevant in favour of the newer version.


Maybe the movie will change things and Carol will take over but more people will think of her as Ms Marvel then Captain if you're taking her history into account and she was a bigger seller as Ms Marvel than she has been as Captain if I recall correctly, certainly a longer run for sure

Karla Sofen Moonstone.

That's probably at least as a good a call as Johnny Storm. I bet few will remember Lloyd Boch, probably fewer than will know Jim Hammond

[phantom1592]

But more than likely they used the name thinking the other would never be used again much like Flash and Green Lantern did with Barry and Hal.

I think this is a major factor too. There should be a difference between a reused/long forgotten name... and an actual 'successor'. Carol and the Capt Marvels were distinctly taking a name from the hero that came before and trying to 'replace' them... Same with Ghost Rider... and Miles' Spider-man... True 'legacy' characters.

Jubilee, Human Torch and Vision? Whatever golden age equivalents they had really didn't have any bearing on them. They were completely new characters with completely new origins and never had any real ties to the 'original's' that even long time Comic fans have never heard of.

[Reptisaurus!]

Sam Wilson has a loyal fanbase but he's probably still not outselling Steve Rogers in almost any decade of Steve's sales you care to pick.

Not is. Was, When he had his own comic. A lot of the original to current name legacies like Vision and Electro are obvious because the original never carried their own book for long if at all. Captain Marvel is less clear cut he was a big seller in his time carried his own title and was a frequent guest star in other comics. When comparing eras you have to look at how well received the older character was or you'll end up with comparisons like America Chavez is more popular than Madeline Joyce. America is too new, has never held down her own title and Madeline did and quite a successful run for the era too. The fact she's no longer published doesn't render her immediately irrelevant in favour of the newer version.

Well, if you want to make sales arguments...

They weren't the lead features, but Electro, the Vision and Ka-zar were featured in Marvel Comics, which was Timely's flagship anthology. Marvel Comics # 1 had something like 800,000 copies printed (in multiple print runs) and sold over 500,000 copies a month, in a time when comics averaged more than one reader per copy sold.

They certainly had a larger audience than any of the modern versions at any given time.

[Reptisaurus!]

I think this is a major factor too. There should be a difference between a reused/long forgotten name... and an actual 'successor'. Carol and the Capt Marvels were distinctly taking a name from the hero that came before and trying to 'replace' them... Same with Ghost Rider... and Miles' Spider-man... True 'legacy' characters.

Jubilee, Human Torch and Vision? Whatever golden age equivalents they had really didn't have any bearing on them. They were completely new characters with completely new origins and never had any real ties to the 'original's' that even long time Comic fans have never heard of.

Yeah, fair point.

Although there's some grey area there. The '60s vision had some of the powers, visual signifiers (smoke!) and a fairly similar design to the '40s Vision.

(Basically Roy Thomas didn't want to create completely new characters for Marvel without any compensation.)

As far as I know this isn't explicit in continuity and I'm sure someone brought back the original Vision. But the Thomas/Buscema Vision isn't a completely new character, either.

Likewise, when the Marvel Captain Marvel was uncancelled and given a new costume he purposefully shared some similarities with the Fawcett version. (He's a kid sometimes and sometimes he's a superhero and they have different personalities.) Again, because Roy Thomas.

[Ken Ashcroft]

I've been seeing quite a lot of love for the new Squadron Supreme Nighthawk. Personally I prefer the original that I grew up with in Defenders but I can see I'm in a minority (of one) here.

You're not along in preferring the Kyle Richmond who,as Nighthawk was a long time member of the Defenders. I always hoped that with the Defenders disbanded, he would have eventually joined the Avengers.

[Iron Fist]

The Human Torch, Kamala Kahn/Ms Marvel, Captain Marvel/Danvers, Guardians of the Galaxy, Uncanny X-Men team by Claremont vs Stan Lee's X-Men.

I'll think of others.

[Wiccan]

Not is. Was, When he had his own comic. A lot of the original to current name legacies like Vision and Electro are obvious because the original never carried their own book for long if at all. Captain Marvel is less clear cut he was a big seller in his time carried his own title and was a frequent guest star in other comics. When comparing eras you have to look at how well received the older character was or you'll end up with comparisons like America Chavez is more popular than Madeline Joyce. America is too new, has never held down her own title and Madeline did and quite a successful run for the era too. The fact she's no longer published doesn't render her immediately irrelevant in favour of the newer version.

When he had his own book and Carol didn't existed and then she was a supporting character. About Ms vs Captain, well, she as Ms Marvel had best numbers on sales. But that's literally ALL. As Captain she has more popularity, more fame(being known by more non-comic readers), more exposure, a bigger role, the fanbase I just said, and the movie coming. Saying she was in a better place before because her previous book sold more issues sounds/feels kinda... out of context(I couldn't find a decent term to express myself, but you can get). And longer run? If we're talking about a looong time ago like when Mar-Vell had a solo, her book was cancelled after 23 issues when comics still reached 100+. And Marvel wasn't obsessed with relaunchs at the time her other solo after that was being released. We could say Carol since 2012 had 37 issues by now with more solicited.

[Michael Watkins]

weird Kyle's like my 4th favorite Nighthawk. I like "Raymond Kane," Joaquin Pennysworth, the more ambitious morally ambiguous Richmond from the Squadron Sinister, and then Neal Richmond.

[Namor'sWrath]

Sam Alexander?

[JediKage]

Watch out Namor'sWrath. The Rider fans are coming for you.

[Triniking1234]

Guardians of the Galaxy

I can't believe the Brian Bendis version of the GotG is the mainstream one. Not even the DnA one (screw Mantis though).

RIP Vance Astro.

[Tofali]

Sam Alexander?

Watch out Namor'sWrath. The Rider fans are coming for you.